• SONAR
  • Problem getting sound from Sonar using Kontakt (p.2)
2015/08/08 10:11:10
robert_e_bone
I am happy you were able to get things to play - that was the goal.  I hadn't considered the absence of Pro Channel, and of course it makes sense to skip the parts that didn't apply.
 
The thing with ASIO4ALL is that it is a band-aid approach to drivers, and has earned a reputation as something that sort of works, sometimes, but also will not work at other times (even it is only installed but not even used).
 
Most audio interfaces seem to work their best when running in ASIO mode, and ASIO4ALL pretends to be ASIO when an audio interface is looking at it and routing things to it for it to process.  But ASIO4ALL is actually built on the WDM drivers as its base, with the ASIO bits floating about, ready to fool the interface or music application into thinking it is talking with an ASIO-mode set of drivers.
 
I have picked up a couple of Focusrite 2i2 audio interfaces that I am quite happy with, for a couple of friends of mine, and they have no troubles using them.  One has Windows 7, and the other has Windows 8.1, both in 64-bit fashion.  One of those seems to be around $150 usd these days.  They seem quite reliable and work well, with active development going into their drivers, which means it looks like they will be around for a while.
 
Ultimately, which audio interface you select will depend on how many inputs/outputs, possibly phantom power, mic pre-amps, analog/digital converter quality, driver availability, and maybe other reasons.  For a good solid 2-channel input audio interface, I like these.  There is another made by Yamaha Steinberg that seems to be in the same cost range, and seems to work OK, as well.
 
And, as far as some of your points from your post above, the midi channel of Omni or None is frequently used to software to both mean to accept midi data from ANY midi channel or source, rather than restricting the midi data to come from a particular channel on a particular midi controller.  And, since most midi controllers transmit on midi channel 1 by default, and Kontakt sets the midi channel its first loaded instrument to 1, that also makes it easy for it all to just 'work'.
 
I recommend you learn about the stuff I covered, and maybe some video or manual-based tutorials on setting up routing assignments, which will come in handy as you begin adding additional tracks and instances, and maybe loading more instruments into a single instance of Kontakt, etc........
 
Best of luck to you - and again, VERY happy you have some sound now.  THese forums have a bunch of really helpful folks, so hang in there, try to do some homework, ask for help when you need it, and help others when you can.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
2015/08/08 10:46:30
Skrzypiec
robert_e_boneUltimately, which audio interface you select will depend on how many inputs/outputs, possibly phantom power, mic pre-amps, analog/digital converter quality, driver availability, and maybe other reasons. For a good solid 2-channel input audio interface, I like these. There is another made by Yamaha Steinberg that seems to be in the same cost range, and seems to work OK, as well.
There are a bit more of us. Two guitars, one violin and one vocal. And you don't know the day when some accidental flute or percussion may join :) So that's why I thought about nothing less than Focusrite 8i6. Also I'm writing some VST music so I need something which won't have problems dealing with both. This is where Steinberg should be the most solid, all in all they invented the thing... Well. Still a bit of time for research and decision.
 
I recommend you learn about the stuff I covered, and maybe some video or manual-based tutorials on setting up routing assignments, which will come in handy as you begin adding additional tracks and instances, and maybe loading more instruments into a single instance of Kontakt, etc........
I did that, my old project had 3 instances of Kontakt5, routed as I described in the end of post #5. What I don't understand is two things:
 
1) Do I always, always need an audio track for playback from Kontakt? The DAWGURU's youtube tutorial totally skips that part and that exactly made me wonder. Can't I use just the MIDI tracks to output to Kontakt which then is captured by Master (or Asio4All in my case)?
 
2) Many tutorials also say about Ascending Output Assignment in Kontakt. This is just what I did in my old project: kontakt output 1/2 for stereo channel 1, kontakt output 3/4 for stereo channel 2 and so on. But do I really need these different outputs at all if everything goes into hardware stereo 1/2 anyway? Isn't this like pouring the water into separate glasses only to pour it back into the common bucket?
2015/08/08 12:53:52
robert_e_bone
OK - congrats on having additional players.  I happen to have a couple of audio interfaces - one is basic and quite old (9 years), and still going strong - an old Native Instruments Kore 1 audio interface, and it has 2 inputs (both are 1/4" only), and also 1/4" outputs.  But it serves its purpose for midi-based projects, or for pieces of projects where I am only adding mostly midi, maybe a guitar or 2.
 
The other audio interface I use is a Presonus AudioBox 1818 VSL, and it has 8 inputs, all with XRL and 1/4" input ports, etc.  I use that when recording a few folks at the same time.  I don't really do any recording of giant acoustic drum kits, mostly because I don't feel like getting all the mics I would need, and because I don't feel like spending the day deciding between 'this' crash cymbal mic placement, versus 'that' one, etc.  I have seen engineers go from teenagers through retirement in a single day, from having to get an acoustic drum set up with mics 'just the way the drummer wants it'.  (kidding, but not by much - hee hee).
 
I usually have the drummer do his own recording and ship things to me - works well.
 
Anyways, when you are researching whatever interface you end up with, make sure it will work with your version of Windows - and ideally, see that they are keeping driver development going.  Lots of times, music stores will start dumping audio interfaces on quick sales, once they realize driver development has stopped for a given interface model, as that means it will at some point just disappear from the market, as it will someday not have drivers needed for some future version of Windows.  Just do your homework, and maybe post some of the ones you are considering here in the forums (hardware), looking for input from some of the forum folks - that would be helpful.
 
Midi tracks themselves have NO audio data on them ZERO.  That's not how they work.  Midi stands for: Musical Instrument Digital Interface, and is really sort of a language, where any device that is midi-capable can transmit and receive these midi 'messages' or events, and then it is up to each device to process/react to those data events.
 
So, a midi track will contain a bunch of little 'event' entries, to store the INFORMATION about an event, but not any AUDIO associated with the event.  For example, each time you play a key on your midi controller, and it is recorded on the midi track, it is the information ABOUT what happened that gets saved.  So there will be a midi event recording that you played, for example, C3 (midi notes range from C1 to whatever is 127 notes further up, C#1, D1, D#1, E1, F1, etc) and it will also record an event when you STOP playing that C3 note, which would be a 'note off' event.  Other information stored could be the velocity you played that note at (also a range from 0-127), as well as patch and bank information.  Other types of events are called Continuous Controller (CC) events, such as mod wheel data, pitch bend data, volume data, etc.....
 
So, if all of that 'event' information is captured on a midi track, when you play that midi track back, you sent that data to some sort of sound generator (Kontakt), which can interpret and process that data, and generate audio output.  Now, that audio output will never be a part of the midi data, the midi data just tells Kontakt  - hey - play these notes for how long, and play them this hard, and have the sustain pedal on for some of those notes, and throw in a pitch bend up 2 half steps between this note and that note, and throw insome mod wheel modulation to that preset - which may give you a Leslie effect for an organ patch, etc....
 
But what make all of the above work is the ROUTING that you set up in Sonar, to tell Sonar to send any trggered events (notes on your controller, sustain pedal, etc.) to a particular soft synth instance of Kontakt, which has a particular instrument (sound) loaded.  Then Kontakt will receive all of those midi events, and will process them, creating audio.  Then, based on how you have the output within Kontakt routed, it will get sent out through one set of Kontakt audio outputs.  But, you need to route that audio output to your audio interface, so you ROUTE the Kontakt audio output to become INPUT on an audio track, which allows you to control panning, volume, effects, etc, and then you send the audio back out from the audio track to go to the Master Bus, which then ROUTES all of the audio to your audio interface.
 
ROUTING makes the world go around, in the recording world.
Oh, with regard to the ascending output on Kontakt - Kontakt, by default, will automatically increment the midi channel for each instrument you load into the same instance of Kontakt.  So, if in 1 Kontakt instance, you load: bass, piano, violin, strings, and organ, then Kontakt will by default set those up to output to the following midi channels: bass=1, piano=2. violin=3, strings=4, organ=5.  All audio for all of the instruments will be sent to the same single audio output channels (1/2), which will NOT be what you really want.
 
Think about it - if all of the above were sent to a single pair of audio outputs, then you would never effectively be able to split those sounds apart to use all of the cool stuff in Sonar, like panning, effects, volume, parallel compression, because all the audio would be lumped together.
 
SOOOOO, what you want to learn about, and do, is to understand how to keep all the midi data so that piano events only end up triggering piano sounds in Kontakt, and bass note midi events only produce bass sounds coming back out of Kontakt, etc.  Additionally, you need to learn how to separate the audio outputs for each loaded instrument in Kontakt, so that each instrument gets routed to its own set of audio output channels coming from Kontakt's Output Section.
 
Keeping the midi separate is pretty easy.  You would insert one midi track for each of your loaded instruments for that Kontakt instance, so in the above example, you would insert a total of FIVE midi tracks.  You would set each midi track to point to the same Kontakt instance in the midi Output at the bottom of each midi track, and you would also make a slight change to another parameter of each of those midi tracks.  Located just under the FX Bin box for each midi track, is a Midi Output Channel assignment parameter.  You need to set that Midi Output Channel number to match the instrument that track's midi data will be for, so the Bass midi track would be set to midi channel 1, the Piano midi track would be set to Midi Output Channel 2, , the Violin midi track would get channel 3, strings midi track would bet channel 4, and the organ midi track would get midi channel 5.
 
OK, so with the above, all of the MIDI stuff is done, you would now have to split the Kontakt output channels so that each instrument gets its own output channels, and then get the correct audio track routing assignments to point each audio track to the correct outputs from the Kontakt instance.
 
I will have to come back for that - I have to run to the store for a while, and get some car work done.  I written this up in the past - hopefully some helpful person can paste in a link to one of me write-ups on how I use the Kontakt Batch Functions to set up the output section output channels for the instruments, and get the audio tracks routed, etc.....   (please?)
 
That is the last piece - so hang in there - we got your back with this.
 
If nobody is able to do that posting of my earlier info on it, I will do it when I get back.
 
Bob Bone
 
 
 
2015/08/09 07:05:15
Skrzypiec
Think about it - if all of the above were sent to a single pair of audio outputs, then you would never effectively be able to split those sounds apart to use all of the cool stuff in Sonar, like panning, effects, volume, parallel compression, because all the audio would be lumped together.

There's no wonder why I didn't understand this - I focused mainly on classical music, where the orchestra sits still on their chairs, so:
- I always did volume directly on MIDI (because it allows control over each signal)
- always did panning directly from Kontakt or mixer and never had to adjust it while the music played
- never needed to use any FX because EWQL has natural reverb already
- never used any complex drums so didn't need parallel compression either.
 
In terms of JUST performance and rendering, and assuming each Kontakt instrument has a different pair of outputs assigned, is it better for each Kontakt instrument to route to its own audio track, or to have a single audio track gathering sound from all Kontakt outputs?
 
Thanks for help Bob, you're fast - I'm asking 2 questions and you answer to 200 :) . If more than "how" I'm asking "why" it's because I did most of these things already, only with very limited knowledge. I use to compare MIDI to DNA, audio to protein and VST to ribosomes in order to understand their relation :D . Bookmarked this topic already.
2015/08/09 20:51:15
robert_e_bone
You want to route the Kontakt audio from multiple instruments in a single Kontakt instance to their own separate audio tracks, so that you can retain control over individual sounds separately.  A bass would not need the same EQ as a violin, etc., and if you have them all going to the same audio track, you could never apply those effects outside of Kontakt, or whatever synth you are using.
 
It is MUCH better to split them within a given Kontakt instance, to have their own audio outputs, then set up separate audio and midi tracks in Sonar for each instrument, and set the midi channels accordingly and the audio routing assignments from each audio track to pick up the correct audio outputs from that instrument from the Kontakt instance.
 
Hope that helps, 
 
Bob Bone
 
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