• SONAR
  • Getting a realistic cello sound (p.5)
2010/07/14 20:40:50
rbowser
OK, so Bitflipper - We're gonna do this, right?  Get a thread going where people work up a short piece, all using the same MIDI file, and whatever orchestral package they have, right?  I'm all for it.  Educational, interesting, fun, enlightening about what other orchestral libraries sound like, what different recording techniques can produce etc.

Randy B.
2010/07/15 12:43:41
Jesse G
Contact  Ethan Wiener  http://www.ethanwiner.com/  

He is an actual cello player who promotes and uses Sonar to create his albums.  He is always willing to share his information and may have used some cello synths along the way as a fill in instrument.  

Peace
2010/07/16 01:43:25
dr.hash
vanblah


OK.  Having recorded in both 100% analog as well as hybrids and 100% digital studios I think I'll weigh in on this even though it's completely off topic.

Ubiquity of the technology that you revere is what is causing the stagnation and lack of creativity in a lot of modern music.  

Your Master's thesis is to determine that a song such as Strawberry Fields can be put together in a DAW?  Of course it can.  There's no question.  Will it sound like the original?  It might given enough tweaking and fiddling.  Does it need to?  Who knows?  I think it is a gross understatement and missing the mark entirely to say that because you can RECREATE a song in a DAW proves that the DAW is all you need to CREATE a good song.  There's a very big distinction between CREATE and RE-CREATE.

A far more interesting question is:  would a song like Strawberry Fields even be written if technology like we have today had been available to the Beatles?  The answer to that is: probably not (in my opinion).  It's entirely academic because there's no real way to test it.  The song has already been written and comparing one song to another is pretty much pointless.

The Beatles were not just John, Paul, George, Ringo, Martin and the multitude of individuals who worked with them (including the orchestra).  It was the sum of those individuals that gave us those recordings.  All of them, working together, to create these songs.  When you work with real musicians in a band or just for hire there is a process of give-and-take.  The musician (who hopefully is accomplished at his/her instrument) will have ideas about things that you probably wouldn't have thought of.  This takes the piece to a new level ... sometimes.

I had 10 years of classical violin lessons as a child (I also play cello, guitar and piano).  However, I do not know everything there is to know about violin (or the other instruments).  It  has given me an advantage when arranging string parts for songs and using string patches (from GPO or any source).  However, when it comes to recording I prefer to use a real person because they will introduce subtle variations to my arrangements that make it come to life.  The song has been re-written from a new and fresh perspective, even if it is just a small change.  It's not always better but usually it is (especially if I have worked with the person before).
I don't care how sophisticated software like Jamstix gets, it will never be the same as talking to a real drummer and working with that drummer on a song.  Although, that has it's own implications.  :)

Mistakes and limitations are also a good part of those Beatles recordings.  Pushing limits is where some of the most creative and interesting things happens.  When you remove those limitations artists tend to stagnate.  Tension among artists can be a good thing too.  I love working in a band, although I do a lot of my writing at my DAW by myself.  When I take those songs to a group of people and they learn parts and bring their own perspective those songs usually become infinitely better.  It's cliché but it really is like watching your children grow up.

Now, having said that, I will say that there are many, many artists out there producing excellent music all by themselves on a DAW that is not always 4/4 and autotuned to hell (and even some good songs that are 4/4 and autotuned to hell).  I have listened to lots of stuff that blows me away that was produced in Sonar (or similar) without a $1000 sample pack. 

TLDR:  I don't agree that just because a song can be recreated in a DAW means that the song could have been written in a DAW.


Caveat:  I don't have a Master's degree.  However, I do work at a small private college at which I am surrounded by people with PhD's in various fields, including music.  The one thing I've learned after my decade here is that there are generally two kinds of people with higher academic degrees:  those that know the degree is essentially worthless, that they themselves are full of sh*t and then there are those that think they can do no wrong.

http://www.paulhenrysmith.com/why-i-use-a-digital-orchestra/ Sorry Guys here is the link to beethovans first done only with sampled orechestra.  Now to answer the above statement.
What i was and am trying to do is to a recreate strawberry fields to see if it's possible.  There are some things that are still preatty hard to emulate with a daw things like vari speed tape.  Yes of course it is going to be possible to recreate strawberry feilds in a daw but how succsefully will it be.  As you have said strawberry fields was made by a team.  what i am saying and testing now is can we now put together the track one person and is the digital technology good enough to make the track. 
 
I dont want to replicate the track persa i want to push the limits of the daw to see if i can make a track like strwberry fields.  I want to know that when i add a digital flavour to my track what that does.  I want to know if i can get away with sampled strings and brass.
 
This is all about the future and where i believe music is going.  The studio is dead and if you need me to post links to prove my point i can.  If this is so then we have to invent a new paradigm to work within.  This means more and more individuals working within the confines of the daw.
 
I have now studied strawberry fields a thousand times (maybe a slight over exageration) and i have the score, the compleate beatle recordings and other sources and of course my ears.  This track is not easy to put together once we start to do things like back cyms, tape speed alteration on the voice, all the percussion and getting the cello to sound right.
 
To return fire to the statement about wether a track like strawberry fields would be recorded if it was today and using today's technology.  That is the whole point of this exercise.  I want to know how to do it so that i can start to do it with my own recordings and i hope other people will start to and of course i understand perfectly that recorded music is about mistakes, a good producer knows when to leave it in or take it out.  Of course john lennon could never have put together a track like strawberry fields by himself with a DAW i love lennon he is MY HERO only doctor who comes as close.  But this guy was a dunce when it came to technology and most people are when it comes to knowledge about the limits of their machines and creativity.
 
Finally only the uneducated that teach at those audio schools for which i am a product of complain about the educated.  I agree that these places are terrible and teach you nothing but if you go into these schools with a head full of knowledge they help tweak it and give an idea and an edge and the balls to say you know what i can make a track like strawberry fields considered to be the finest example of 4 track tape recording in history.  This recording tested the limits of modern music technology of the time and this is what i am trying to acheive.  one more thing a masters degree makes sure your opinion is heard, the person listening may not agree but your opinion counts in this world because you are educated.  so vanblah and your name says it all blah blah blah.  I can imagine the sort of boring and lame music you make and i can imagine the bad attitude that drips from you like sweat and stinks the classroom and is destroying the youth of today.  Phew do us all a favour and top yourself musically.
2010/07/16 10:20:50
vanblah
Wow.  What a bunch of vitriol.  My response was not an attack on you.  It was an engagement of some statements that you made.

And to think I thought I was having a decent conversation with someone working on a Master's degree when all along it was someone with barely a high school education.  I only discern that through your use of the English language; but perhaps English is not your native tongue.  Either way your final three sentences more than prove my point with regard to your emotional age.  You have also proven which kind of academic you are.

I am not a teacher at the school at which I work.  It is not only the uneducated who complain about the uneducated.  It is by far much more vehement among the higher academics and if you were really working on your Master's you'd know that.  A Master's degree will not "get you heard" any more than any other degree (or lack of degree).  If the masses don't like what you say then you're not going to get heard.  How many people with Master's degrees in music do you think there are?  Thousands are awarded every year.  Do you think all of them get heard and are taken seriously?  The only people who care about Master's theses are other academics.  When you go to defend that thesis you're going to have to put up with a lot more criticism than what I threw your way.

I have nothing to prove with regard to music.  I have been writing, performing and recording for more than 25 years.  Some successes, some not so much.  I continue to try to "top myself musically" every day.  I enjoy what I do and I'm well aware that not everyone will share that enjoyment.
2010/07/16 20:09:08
dr.hash
Fair cop vanblah, i like to write in a stream of conscious sort of way so yes English can be a crap although i have  a fairly high IQ when it comes to words and the understanding of.  yes my education has been a little all over the shop as well.  Look i  like vitriol i like fighting words.  our industry and you can disagree with me if you like is in turmoil we are owned as artists buy a handful of multi nationals.  Yes we have social networking and these have helped democratise our industry to our detriment, again because of a lack of understing about the daw as an instrument and an ecosystem.  This is what the Beatles started in 1966 of course with GM and GE with the whole studio as instrument. 
Yes you are right these courses can be a big pile of crap and yes 1000's have these degrees not so with masters much these are more rare.  I was pointing out that a degree in society means and should mean your opinion is heard and if this is not the case once again society is in the crap.  Academics and the educated since the time of the Greeks have been treated with the respect that should come with those credentials.  University's are now just big sausage factory's and we have lost that too.  I am fighting these concepts, i want respect back to the academics and the educated because without them society is in big ****. 
I am fighting the music industry because the ones that don't have degrees and education are holding us back by saying you cant do a song like strawberry fields unless you have a studio like abbey road.  They want to hold onto what little business there is left, that's my opinion from interacting with these people(this is bad because this concept as i am proving is holding artists back) and the ones that do have degrees are holding us back by teaching us crap and turning pro tools into a deity.  Look i like to **** stir.  I just want music to return to the pinnacle of the 1960's where we where in the years of dash and daring and with a program like sonar we should be able to do it.  Sonar forever Pro-tools never. I am going to have that made in to a t-shirt at some point in time.  Just remember Lennon before he became all peace and love could launch into some pretty vicious vitriol himself and even after the peace and love he could still do so.  I am warrior musician, artist and philosopher.  am i pretentious? Yes and as artists we need that pretension.  Of course you need to back everything up with fact its the one thing that i have learnt from these courses, is to back it up and i will, i will publish strawberry fields over the coming weeks in its various stages to get opinions.  Don't get offended vanblah get angry and join the revolution.  We as artists and as a part of this world need to do this.  I am aggressive because i think, no i believe that the world has become a big pile of mush and moodle coddled human feces.  Viva la revolution.
http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
Ps i love a good debate.  Thanks to you all and strawberry fields is sounding thunderous in the right places, it doesn't sound like the Beatles but it does sound right to my ears any way.  I really do love every body we just need more aggression and people standing tight in what they believe.  Come on!! (god i hate leyton hewitt)
2015/07/13 14:03:21
mhazdra
dr.hash
PS here is a link to a guy who did beethovans 1st all within a DAW.  This is amazing this is the future.  If beethovan or mozart were alive today they to would get rid of all those pesky musicians and go down the virtual route.  Bring on the future Long Live Digital!!! Hoorha Hoorhra Hoora



In the near future, Artificial Intelligence will even replace you, dr.hash. Therefore all of your time and effort are completely wasted.
 
That said, I love working and creating in Sonar. However, I also love the interaction between humans when I am practicing or performing with/for other humans.  Long Live Human Interaction ! ! !
 
( My apologies to everybody for getting off the subject of cello articulation)
 
On the subject of cello articulation:
Thank you everybody for the comments. I have just listened to Maya Beiser "World to Come", and I have read all your comments, so I am ready to tackle my own composition with GPO. Wish me luck!
 
 
 
" Much of the Beauty that arises in art comes from the struggle an artist wages with his limited medium." - Henri Matisse
2015/07/13 15:35:10
Bristol_Jonesey
You do know it was a five year old thread right?
 
Welcome to the forums btw.
2015/07/13 16:11:13
Beagle
Bristol_Jonesey
You do know it was a five year old thread right?
 
Welcome to the forums btw.


he joined 5 years ago with only 2 posts....  he's just now getting around to reading the threads from 2010...
 
he started at the beginning...
 

2015/07/13 16:20:38
charlyg
In the beginning there was a catfish
And he was the biggest he had ever seen
And he did walk.
 
H/T to the bozos on the bus
2015/07/13 16:43:48
mettelus
I missed it in 2010... Was entertaining at least. We need a visual cue for old threads, like a pink background or something... Is even worse when mobile.
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