DRanck

jsg
After composing and sequencing the piece in Sonar Platinum, I export the MIDI File (not XML!) into Sibelius
and edit the score and error-check all the parts. 

Thanks for sharing the score Jerry. Really great piece. Why not export as Music XML? Too much to fix in Sibelius?

Glad you enjoyed it.   The reason it's better to export a type 1 midi file instead of XML is because, from what I understand, XML looks at the actual score, the graphics.  Sonar's inability to notate tied and dotted triplets, as well as 32nd note triplets properly means that an XML export would retain those issues when opening up the file in Sibelius.  A SMF (standard midi file) would not do that because when Sibelius looks at an SMF, it simply reads the MIDI data, and of course Sonar's MIDI data is accurate. 
 
And, my experience with Digital Performer 8 and 9 also reveals that DP doesn't notate dotted triplets correctly either, although tied triplets and 32nd note triplets are not an issue with DP.
 
So, given these facts, I'd rather have my notation program read midi data rather than graphics.  I have to do editing anyway, and, preparing the final score allows me to find errors that crop up in the MIDI sequence that need clarification or correction. 
 
By the way, let's keep our fingers crossed because a few weeks ago a representative from Cakewalk asked me to send him PDFs of how correctly notated triplets look in Sibelius. I created a file with dotted, tied and nested triplets notated correctly and sent them off.  Does this mean CW is now serious about fixing this long-standing issue?  I don't know, but let's hope so!
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

jsg

DRanck

jsg
After composing and sequencing the piece in Sonar Platinum, I export the MIDI File (not XML!) into Sibelius
and edit the score and error-check all the parts. 

Thanks for sharing the score Jerry. Really great piece. Why not export as Music XML? Too much to fix in Sibelius?

Glad you enjoyed it.   The reason it's better to export a type 1 midi file instead of XML is because, from what I understand, XML looks at the actual score, the graphics.  Sonar's inability to notate tied and dotted triplets, as well as 32nd note triplets properly means that an XML export would retain those issues when opening up the file in Sibelius.  A SMF (standard midi file) would not do that because when Sibelius looks at an SMF, it simply reads the MIDI data, and of course Sonar's MIDI data is accurate. 
 
And, my experience with Digital Performer 8 and 9 also reveals that DP doesn't notate dotted triplets correctly either, although tied triplets and 32nd note triplets are not an issue with DP.
 
So, given these facts, I'd rather have my notation program read midi data rather than graphics.  I have to do editing anyway, and, preparing the final score allows me to find errors that crop up in the MIDI sequence that need clarification or correction. 
 
By the way, let's keep our fingers crossed because a few weeks ago a representative from Cakewalk asked me to send him PDFs of how correctly notated triplets look in Sibelius. I created a file with dotted, tied and nested triplets notated correctly and sent them off.  Does this mean CW is now serious about fixing this long-standing issue?  I don't know, but let's hope so!
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Hey Jerry . . . this last part of your reply is a very interesting tidbit indeed !
We know they listen, but listen to Staff View concerns ? It's been a while, thank you for your perseverance in leading the charge.

This is encouraging indeed! 

cparmerlee
There is already a technology that works in a similar fashion: Rewire.  But Rewire is not the answer in this case because Rewire can only send the wave streams from notation program to DAW.  It seems to me that a "MIDI Rewire" might be something that could be adopted by multiple products and form the basis for a more powerful integration.
 

I was poking around the interwebs and found this on the Notion / Presonus forums:
https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=167&t=9898&sid=d36874a12eeacc16b98ab230e3d00e43
The video shows Notion transmitting MIDI to Studio One via external MIDI ports. It got me to thinking, if Notion can transmit to external MIDI ports, those ports could be used as inputs to Sonar or something like rptMidi or Transmidifier could be used as an intermediary. Not sure how time code would be transmitted unless by Rewire. I could not get Notion to output MIDI though. Not a Sonar problem - I wired Notion to Transmidifier but got no data. 
 
 

noynekker
We know they listen, but listen to Staff View concerns ? 

I think the key to getting CW to listen (or any software company, for that matter) is to do what Jerry did - present very specific requests that are realistic in scope, and based on real-world usage. 

DRanck
I was poking around the interwebs and found this on the Notion / Presonus forums:
https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=167&t=9898&sid=d36874a12eeacc16b98ab230e3d00e43
The video shows Notion transmitting MIDI to Studio One via external MIDI ports. It got me to thinking, if Notion can transmit to external MIDI ports, those ports could be used as inputs to Sonar or something like rptMidi or Transmidifier could be used as an intermediary. Not sure how time code would be transmitted unless by Rewire. I could not get Notion to output MIDI though. Not a Sonar problem - I wired Notion to Transmidifier but got no data. 

Wow, that is a real eye-opener.  I have always looked at Rewire as a way to synchronize wave streams, not MIDI.  Is this Midi support a vendor-specific extension to StudioOne, Notion, or both -- or is that something that one would expect to find in any product that supports Rewire?
 
In the case of Finale, there is no Rewire support.  Finale is an outlier in that respect.  It seems that just about every other notation product claims Rewire support.
 
This Presonus demonstration doesn't simplify the process of connecting the DAW with the notation program.  That is quite involved according to the video, but it does seem a person could set up templates in both the DAW and notation programs to streamline that process, if one tends to write for the same type of ensemble frequently.
 
My first comment was going to be that this would allow me to set envelopes, control tempi, and add VST effects, but not actually modify the MIDI.  But then the video demonstrated recording midi into the DAW.  The video seemed to imply that I could record little swatches here and there from selected parts and use a combination of my original notation MIDI and MIDI captured in the DAW.  That would be pretty good as I typically would only need to modify MIDI in a few measures here and there, and not in all the parts.
 
So the big question is, I don't think I can do this with Finale, but can SONAR already to the stuff demonstrated for StudioOne?  In other words, if I had Notion and Sonar, could I make that same configuration work?
 
Regarding Finale, there is some talk of people using Plogue Bidule (http://www.plogue.com/products/bidule/) to enable rewire, but I'm not sure that actually can work.
 
Anyway, that's a great find.  Even if I cannot practically use that today, this is the kind of convergence I have been taking about.  Very powerful stuff.
 
 

John T
Drum Replacement is a huge part of modern record production. I don't love that, personally, and I think just playing and recording the drums well in the first place is always more to my taste. But we're in a world now where there are bands who want and expect that to happen on their records. It's not a niche thing at all.

 
Same here.   I have zero use for it - personally.  As I have zero use for a LOT in most modern DAWS.  I certainly understand the reasons its there, it's just that it means that there's less resources for the smaller market stuff *I* would be interested in.  Just the way it is really.... but it does open the door for maybe more specialized niche companies to make inroads in the smaller markets, if anyone was crazy enough to try it.
 
 
 

Cakewalk has been able to synch to and record from an external sequencer (like a keyboard workstation) for forever. I'm just wondering if I can get the midi outs in Notion to work, and if I can there should be no reason not to be able to record from them in Sonar. It might be useful.

DRanck
Cakewalk has been able to synch to and record from an external sequencer (like a keyboard workstation) for forever. I'm just wondering if I can get the midi outs in Notion to work, and if I can there should be no reason not to be able to record from them in Sonar. It might be useful.

Does anybody know if Sibelius can send MIDI to an "external keyboard" in the way that Notion was demonstrated in the video?  If so, then it seems that that same Notion/StudioOne configuration could be set up with Sibelius/Sonar.

DRanck
I was poking around the interwebs and found this on the Notion / Presonus forums:
https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=167&t=9898&sid=d36874a12eeacc16b98ab230e3d00e43

Check out this video.
https://vimeo.com/19636583
 
In this case, there is no Rewire at all.  The gentleman is simply sending MIDI directly from Sibelius to Cubase, with all the rendering and effects in Cubase.  Without Rewire, Cubase just plays whatever MIDI commands come in through the virtual MIDI cables, so Sibelius is in charge of the tempo.
 
This will not permit editing of the MIDI within Cubase, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.  Considering that Both Sibelius and Cubase support Rewire (master or slave in both cases I think), then it seems likely you could do the Rewire configuration demonstrated for StudioOne and Notion.
 
It seems to me that Finale is the odd man out, as the only one not supporting Rewire.
 
One thing I am not clear about.  Your Presonus example showed recording some of the MIDI into StudioOne.  It isn't clear to me what happens if I record a few measures of MIDI and then modify the MIDI within the DAW.  When I go to play back that measure, will I now hear TWO copies of MIDI for those measures (the original from Notion and the copy I hacked on in StidioOne?)  ideally I'd like to hear the Notion MIDI except for the measures I have saved in StudioOne.  Do you think there is some option for the DAW MIDI to override the Notion MIDI when both sources are present, much like take lanes?