OldTimerNewComer
I Believe that what drives a developer to "IMPROVE" a feature is the same as
always... profit, and the averages of all the reasons the largest market share target
purchases a DAW for;
 
I don't think notation will ever be high enough on that list to make a critical difference
to the Bakers, as long as better and more nominally priced apps exist 3rd party.
 
jm2c
Mel

 Google is full of people who dropped Sonar because of notation. I do believe the author of this thread started to use MOTU DP and came back.
 An end user wants some efficiency in DAW notation and if it is to performed by other musicians it transferred to a notation app. 

pbognar

jsg
 
What Sonar's notation can use in my opinion are really only three things:
 
1. Bring the note resolution down to 64th notes.   That includes 32nd and 64th note triplets.
2. Fix the dotted and tied triplet issue (all triplets) so that tied and dotted notes conform to SMN (standard music notation)
3. Change the way dotted notes are displayed:  The dot should never be on a staff line, instead always above the line the note is on, based on SMN rules. 
 
That's it.  
 

 
I like it.  Leave the graphics out for now.
 
But, with regard to triplets, are we still in agreement that we would like to see limitation of complete groups of three notes per triplet group eliminated?  If so, Jerry, can you edit your original post in the thread to reflect that?
 
Thanks

Yeah, I agree, I thought I covered that with the tied and dotted triplets, but you're right, if you have 3 eighth note triplets, and you remove the middle one, Sonar won't display it properly, even if not tied or dotted.  This should be fixed as well.  I think if the developers choose to fix all the triplet issues, that will also get repaired.
 
Jerry
 

I'd like to thank Jerry for all of his contributions over the years in general, and this latest thread in particular.
 
I'd also like to say +1 to Kamikaze's post. I was thinking exactly the same thing as Kamikaze posted when I was reading Craig's post. Craig, I have the utmost respect for you, as well. But Cakewalk needs to know that while I am not a vocal member of the forum, I am a regular user of Sonar, I've purchased almost every upgrade since Pro Audio 5, and I use the staff view! That's why I posted in Sid's thread early on (thanks to you too, Sid) and now in Jerry's latest thread. I'd like to think that I count, and that there are many more people like me that also count.

Do any of the current staff view fixes (4) address long standing bugs, or are they just fixes to the UI that were introduced with the X series? I could be wrong, but I don't see any bug fixes to the "core" yet.
Hope springs eternal.

jatoth
Do any of the current staff view fixes (4) address long standing bugs, or are they just fixes to the UI that were introduced with the X series? I could be wrong, but I don't see any bug fixes to the "core" yet.
Hope springs eternal.

Mostly fixes since X1. 
 
1. Snap function fixed
2. Order of tracks in track pane when switching screensets fixed
3. Order of tracks in track pane when opening file fixed
4. Easier to click on notes on ledger lines to bring up note properties (still not perfect, but definitely better)
 
But several improvements over the Pre X days:
1.  Dark track pane easier to see
2.  Tabs--locked tabs are great for setting up multiple staff views.  Didn't exist before X1
 

I remember posting many years ago that the chances of any staff view improvements getting any traction by the bakers depends a lot on whether the Sonar Staff view users can offer up any concrete examples of what they actually want improved. It's a staff view, it plays back the notes . . . so what else should there be ?
 
Jerry has given some very compelling details here about what he would like to see, and it sounds like he's customized his workflow with many keyboard shortcuts.
 
For me, it's all about midi editing in staff view. I want to be able to quickly draw ideas, by clicking and dragging my mouse, I want more powerful shortcuts that save time. Sure, I can do some of that in Piano Roll View, but it doesn't make any visual sense to my way of doing things until I check it in Staff View.
 
I really like kamikaze's point about being able to drag out the note lengths.
 
Anything that saves editing one note at a time is useful time saver.
 
Panup's Duckbar utility brings back the note duration editing tool that disappeared from Cakewalk staff view years ago, and I'm still wondering why Sonar can't get this going again ?
 
And what's with the #'s and b's . .  today I'm editing in the key of A major, and  I can't add C# . . I'm stuck with Db ?
 
I'm continually moving between Staff and PRV in a midi editing session, and I've found a very quick way to go back and forth (Hold Ctrl-Shift - - - then left + right arrow keys while in multi-dock) so I guess that's what Cakewalk has in mind for midi editing workflow . . . more weighted to the PRV editing, and that's why the recent improvements are mostly there. The new paint roller tool is brilliant, wish it was available in staff view.
 
I'll be interested to see if any Staff view improvements make it into the program in the next few months, since there seems to be a bit of noise about this from the staff "vocal minority"
 

noynekker
 
 
And what's with the #'s and b's . .  today I'm editing in the key of A major, and  I can't add C# . . I'm stuck with Db ?
 

That doesn't sound right.  If you choose A major as the key (3 sharps) Sonar knows and when you insert a C it will be C-sharp automatically.  If you want it to be d-flat, , or c-natural, click on note properties and change it, or, go to interpolate if you want to change all c#s to D-flats.  Same if you don't specify a key signature, it might be C major but it could be 12-tone, chromatic, modal or some other keynote that has the tonal gravity.  In that case though it's the same, You can change any note into its enharmonic equivalent through properties or interpolate.
 
You can also change a note, such as a-natural to b-flat by clicking on both mouse buttons while dragging the note, using either the draw or select tool.
 
JG
 
 

I think Cakewalk should pay more attention to these issues. Sonar is my main tool, but I was at the point of abandoning it a couple of years ago. It was only the addition of xml export in the print view that has kept it viable as my main DAW.
The competitor that Cake should be worried about is Presonus. As I see it its only a matter of time before the Integration between Notion and Studio One will make it impossible to resist for those users who need notation

Fz1

noynekker
 
I really like kamikaze's point about being able to drag out the note lengths.
 

Thanks, but Cityrat takes credit for finding that Gif file of drawing out not lengths. I just also think it's a great idea and think Staff View should act a bot more like PRV in that we draw and edit notes out and in, rather than drop them in.
 

FZ1
As I see it its only a matter of time before the Integration between Notion and Studio One will make it impossible to resist for those users who need notation

Presonus soon. Steinberg in maybe 3 years, and maybe Avid after that, but they are probably even more concentrated on the production world than Cakewalk is.
 
For people who work heavily with one of the major notation products (Finale, Sibelius, notion, etc), the issue is all about productivity.  Yes, we could use the notation in Sonar, but why would we want to do that?  It is only 5% of what we expect in our final published product..
 
Yes, we can import as MIDI but that is a one-time, one-way thing and frankly a real PITA.  What we need is more active integration that allows us to continue to make changes in the notated score and have those automatically reflected in our DAW realization.  It is a work flow thing. 
 
What we have is a catch-22.  Cakewalk doesn't see that as a priority because they think few people are doing this.  But few people are doing this because it is such a PITA.  When a company, maybe Presonus, makes it easier, you will probably see a lot of people choosing to work this way.
 
Let me put it another way.  In my circle of musician friends, there are 10 people frequently using notation programs for every one that regularly uses a DAW.  That may not be indicative of the market as a whole, but there are a lot of people using notation programs, and some percent of them would find it really cool to be able to easily render (and fine tune) their works in a DAW.