+1 to previous post.

cparmerlee

FZ1
As I see it its only a matter of time before the Integration between Notion and Studio One will make it impossible to resist for those users who need notation

Yes, we can import as MIDI but that is a one-time, one-way thing and frankly a real PITA.  What we need is more active integration that allows us to continue to make changes in the notated score and have those automatically reflected in our DAW realization.  It is a work flow thing. 
 
Let me put it another way.  In my circle of musician friends, there are 10 people frequently using notation programs for every one that regularly uses a DAW.  That may not be indicative of the market as a whole, but there are a lot of people using notation programs, and some percent of them would find it really cool to be able to easily render (and fine tune) their works in a DAW.

 
I don't find exporting a SMF type 1 into Sibelius from Sonar a PITA at all.  It's easy.  Of course the score has to cleaned up, slurs, tempo marks, dynamic marks, have to be added, but this has to be done anyways even if you start a score from scratch.   When I import from Sonar, the tied, dotted and nested triplets get displayed correctly in Sibelius.
 
Also, Sonar is a production tool, you can make actual recordings with it, record and edit audio, etc.  If all of your friends are using a notation program instead of a DAW they're not making recordings or dealing with audio, at least not in Sibelius or Finale.  If one is working in the world of electronic music, a notation program won't be much help, if one is working with live players and not making recordings, a notation program is all you need.
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com
 

jsg
I don't find exporting a SMF type 1 into Sibelius from Sonar a PITA at all.  It's easy.  Of course the score has to cleaned up, slurs, tempo marks, dynamic marks, have to be added, but this has to be done anyways even if you start a score from scratch.   When I import from Sonar, the tied, dotted and nested triplets get displayed correctly in Sibelius.

Let me describe my work flow and you can tell me where I am wasting hours of time.
 
I produce a composition or arrangement in Finale.  For early drafts for the client, I simply render from Finale.  That is done in under a minute and sounds pretty good for the purposes of eliciting constructive feedback about the score.
 
As I get toward the final product, I want to have a more realistic rendering.  I have to create all the necessary tracks and synths in Sonar.  Often I arrange for similar instrumentation, so I can create a Sonar template that will save a little time.  No big complaint there, although I'd much rather give Sonar my Finale MusicXML and have Sonar automatically build the appropriate project for me.  All the info is there in the MusicXML.
 
Next I save all the MIDI from my Finale project.  Finale can generate some very elaborate MIDI with its Human Playback feature.  I run a plug-in in Finale to capture the HP information into my MIDI file.  That's not too bad.  Takes about 3 minutes.  Before I do that, I will make some basic settings for each voice, such as pan.
 
Now I have to bring the MIDI into SONAR.  I don't what you call a PITA, but this meets my definition of PITA.  I have to drag one track at a time to get each instrument into the correct MIDI track in Sonar.  Then there are some basic incompatibilities I have to work around by adding some MIDI commands at the beginning of ever single MIDI track.  That process takes about 90 minutes, so now I am about 20 hours into the project before I have a reasonable sound coming out.  From there, I can make all the additional MIDI tweaks and add the effects I need to make the rendering appreciably better than the file that comes straight out of Finale.  That's the whole point, after all.  That's 3 hours minimum, and often more like 5, but maybe I an too anal about the tweaking.
 
So far so good.  Now here's the problem.  With this better rendering I hear some things that should have been voiced differently, so I go back and fix that in my Finale file.  And then what ...
 
Right.  I have to go back through this whole ^$#^ thing -- or at least a good part of it -- again.  Likewise with the improved SONAR output, the client hears some additional possibilities he wants to try, so I add that to the Finale score and ...
 
I hope you are getting the picture  This is crap.  Time is money.  Sound quality is also money.  This is not how this software ought to work together in 2015.  The expectations from my clients get higher every year and the software is simply not keeping up.  And I don't blame Cakewalk exclusively.  It is a problem across the board.  But somebody is going to make progress here and they will be rewarded for it.
 
And don't get me started about the brain-dead multi-track MIDI editor that is 100% unusable with MIDI files that use several controllers  -- as the Finale Human Playback files do.  This is ridiculous.  A monumental blunder of UI design by Cakewalk.

The solution is obvious - do all of your composition & arranging in Sonar.
 
Why exactly are you using Finale?
 
Genuine question: you don't mention printing out parts or anything else that needs a dedicated notation program

cparmerlee

jsg
I don't find exporting a SMF type 1 into Sibelius from Sonar a PITA at all.  It's easy.  Of course the score has to cleaned up, slurs, tempo marks, dynamic marks, have to be added, but this has to be done anyways even if you start a score from scratch.   When I import from Sonar, the tied, dotted and nested triplets get displayed correctly in Sibelius.

Let me describe my work flow and you can tell me where I am wasting hours of time.
 
I produce a composition or arrangement in Finale.  For early drafts for the client, I simply render from Finale.  That is done in under a minute and sounds pretty good for the purposes of eliciting constructive feedback about the score.
 
As I get toward the final product, I want to have a more realistic rendering.  I have to create all the necessary tracks and synths in Sonar.  Often I arrange for similar instrumentation, so I can create a Sonar template that will save a little time.  No big complaint there, although I'd much rather give Sonar my Finale MusicXML and have Sonar automatically build the appropriate project for me.  All the info is there in the MusicXML.
 
Next I save all the MIDI from my Finale project.  Finale can generate some very elaborate MIDI with its Human Playback feature.  I run a plug-in in Finale to capture the HP information into my MIDI file.  That's not too bad.  Takes about 3 minutes.  Before I do that, I will make some basic settings for each voice, such as pan.
 
Now I have to bring the MIDI into SONAR.  I don't what you call a PITA, but this meets my definition of PITA.  I have to drag one track at a time to get each instrument into the correct MIDI track in Sonar.  Then there are some basic incompatibilities I have to work around by adding some MIDI commands at the beginning of ever single MIDI track.  That process takes about 90 minutes, so now I am about 20 hours into the project before I have a reasonable sound coming out.  From there, I can make all the additional MIDI tweaks and add the effects I need to make the rendering appreciably better than the file that comes straight out of Finale.  That's the whole point, after all.  That's 3 hours minimum, and often more like 5, but maybe I an too anal about the tweaking.
 
So far so good.  Now here's the problem.  With this better rendering I hear some things that should have been voiced differently, so I go back and fix that in my Finale file.  And then what ...
 
Right.  I have to go back through this whole ^$#^ thing -- or at least a good part of it -- again.  Likewise with the improved SONAR output, the client hears some additional possibilities he wants to try, so I add that to the Finale score and ...
 
I hope you are getting the picture  This is crap.  Time is money.  Sound quality is also money.  This is not how this software ought to work together in 2015.  The expectations from my clients get higher every year and the software is simply not keeping up.  And I don't blame Cakewalk exclusively.  It is a problem across the board.  But somebody is going to make progress here and they will be rewarded for it.
 
And don't get me started about the brain-dead multi-track MIDI editor that is 100% unusable with MIDI files that use several controllers  -- as the Finale Human Playback files do.  This is ridiculous.  A monumental blunder of UI design by Cakewalk.

I work in the opposite direction, probably because I am writing primarily for electronic instruments, not live players.  I do all my composition, arranging and orchestrating in Sonar, when I am finished (I mean really finished, and ready to render the MIDI tracks into a wave file) I export to Sibelius, clean up the score (add whatever markings I need) and check for errors such as wrong notes, etc.  Then I proceed in Sonar to render to wave.
 
Everyone works differently so I can't tell you how to save time, plus I don't use Finale so I know almost nothing about it.  But from what you say, it appears easier to go from Sonar to a notation program than the opposite.
 
Best,
 
Jerry
 
 
 

Bristol_Jonesey
Why exactly are you using Finale?

Because I am being paid for publication-quality scores.  What comes out of Sonar is the most primitive stuff that wouldn't be acceptable to any client or publisher.  Have you ever used a real notation program?

jsg
 when I am finished (I mean really finished, and ready to render the MIDI tracks into a wave file) I export to Sibelius, clean up the score (add whatever markings I need) and check for errors such as wrong notes, etc.  Then I proceed in Sonar to render to wave.

You are conforming to the limitations of the software and then trying to rationalize that as being the right solution.
 
I don't believe it is unreasonable to expect to be able to work iteratively.  And it isn't just in the pursuit of the "finished product" so to speak.  The real world is iterative.  Just last night I had to correct a part on a piece that I had released 4 months ago.  I discovered an error in rehearsal, so I fixed it and re-published the sheet music.  That took about 5 minutes start to finish.
 
Now because this is such a PITA, I'm not going to go back and render my final demonstration audio.  But in the ideal  world, the tools would integrate well enough that punching out the revised audio in Sonar would be essentially a one-click thing.
 
I get the feeling you think I am being unreasonable or you think that clients don't judge us on the basis of the quality of our work.  The point is the standards are going up every year and the software is falling behind in this area.  If you don't work for clients that have these expectations, that is fine, but that's the real world as I see it. 
 
I believe we are talking about the difference between a hobbyist's avocation and professional results.  I have absolutely no objection to hobby activities.  I have lots of hobbies of my own.  But nobody should be kidding themselves this this is a professional solution.
 

I am but a hobbit myself...

cparmerlee

jsg
 when I am finished (I mean really finished, and ready to render the MIDI tracks into a wave file) I export to Sibelius, clean up the score (add whatever markings I need) and check for errors such as wrong notes, etc.  Then I proceed in Sonar to render to wave.

You are conforming to the limitations of the software and then trying to rationalize that as being the right solution.
 
I don't believe it is unreasonable to expect to be able to work iteratively.  And it isn't just in the pursuit of the "finished product" so to speak.  The real world is iterative.  Just last night I had to correct a part on a piece that I had released 4 months ago.  I discovered an error in rehearsal, so I fixed it and re-published the sheet music.  That took about 5 minutes start to finish.
 
Now because this is such a PITA, I'm not going to go back and render my final demonstration audio.  But in the ideal  world, the tools would integrate well enough that punching out the revised audio in Sonar would be essentially a one-click thing.
 
I get the feeling you think I am being unreasonable or you think that clients don't judge us on the basis of the quality of our work.  The point is the standards are going up every year and the software is falling behind in this area.  If you don't work for clients that have these expectations, that is fine, but that's the real world as I see it. 
 
I believe we are talking about the difference between a hobbyist's avocation and professional results.  I have absolutely no objection to hobby activities.  I have lots of hobbies of my own.  But nobody should be kidding themselves this this is a professional solution.
 

I don't think you're unreasonable, the thought actually never crossed my mind.  But when you write " You are conforming to the limitations of the software and then trying to rationalize that as being the right solution."  I realize you're not understanding what I've said.  I've scored music for TV, film, computer games, dance companies, multimedia, albums, animation, corporate communications and documentaries so I think I know something about professional applications and which software to use.
 
You appear to be confusing the role of notation in a DAW with the role of notation in a dedicated notation program.  What you're talking about is publish-quality scores vs. a good midi editor.  They serve two different purposes, the latter is for composition, arranging and sequencing within a music production environment, the former is for creating professional hard-copy for publishing and parts for players.  I consider Sibelius, Score and Finale graphics programs more than they are music production tools. 
 
Most professional music publishers use Sibelius or SCORE, not Finale.  No professionals use a graphics program for recording, editing audio, sequencing MIDI or any other activity that involves making a recording. 
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

cparmerlee

Bristol_Jonesey
Why exactly are you using Finale?

Because I am being paid for publication-quality scores.  What comes out of Sonar is the most primitive stuff that wouldn't be acceptable to any client or publisher.  Have you ever used a real notation program?

So, my point being, why not do all the hard stuff - composing, arranging, editing etc in Sonar. Then, when you've finished - dump it out into Finale for publication.
 
To my mind it's a very viable workaround/solution.