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  • How well do well known brickwall limiters handle ISPs?
2017/06/30 23:23:04
backwoods
Thought this test was interesting... some of the highly vaunted plugins don't do as well as cheaper alternatives on this test.
 
Still not sure how closely ISPs should be considered when making music but it's an interesting subject all the same
 
https://www.saintpid.se/e...ue-peak-limiters-test/
2017/07/01 04:27:18
bitflipper
Of course they should be considered. Any limiter worth its salt should do exactly what it says on the tin: limit.
 
Handling ISPs requires calculating true peak values. Fortunately, that's easy to do: oversampling! Which is why I am surprised that high-end standards from Sonnox and UAD failed the test. Note that not all limiters have a button called "oversampling". Some call it "true peak". Same thing. I can't believe those limiters don't have this option.
 
Interesting note on Pro-L: "Pro-L does not handle ISP automatically – you need to use Lookahead and keep an eye on the meter." They do not say whether oversampling was enabled for the test. Pro-L offers 2x and 4x oversampling, either of which should be adequate at 44.1 KHz. I do not use either option, and it always limits properly. Just did a test, setting the limit -0.4 dB and checked the output: exactly -0.4 dB. I do, however, usually have a lookahead setting of 250us.
 
Their finding on Ozone matches my own experience. It's always right on the money.
2017/07/01 04:33:25
bitflipper
I have to question how realistic the test was. They took an already-mastered track that had been peak-limited to -1.0 dB, then boosted it by 7.5 dB to test the limiters. If your mixes are hitting the master bus at +6.5 dB you don't a better limiter, you need to learn how to mix.
2017/07/01 06:04:37
backwoods
i think they must have been using the older sonnox limiter-- 1.5 which was recently released introduced true peak limiting.
 
i went looking for things like this because i have a tc electronic loudness meter (vst) and all my limiters go .1 ABOVE 0 according to that thing. I don't know how accurate this test was either. it just seems weird that there is such variance around the -1 figure they were expecting. also surprising that wavelab meters, nugen, izotope meters don't get the same readings
2017/07/01 12:52:48
The Maillard Reaction
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2017/07/01 12:56:33
The Maillard Reaction
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2017/07/01 13:11:18
Jeff Evans
PSP Xenon has an over sample button which can compensate for inter sample peaks.  I wonder if they even had it switched in.  It is very easy to overlook.
2017/07/01 16:58:59
drewfx1
bitflipper
Which is why I am surprised that high-end standards from Sonnox and UAD failed the test. Note that not all limiters have a button called "oversampling". Some call it "true peak". Same thing. I can't believe those limiters don't have this option.



The UAD Precision Limiter is old and they've always touted it as basically doing as little as possible:
 

No upsampling is used, nor does the Precision Limiter pass audio through any filters — audio remains untouched unless the compressor is working, in which case, only gain is affected.

 
They could upsample just the sidechain, but again - it's old and I don't think it was really designed to squeeze the last fraction of a dB out of things.
 
 
Other thoughts:
 
1. Setting the attack and release to "default" doesn't make sense for a test like this. Attack should always have been set as fast as allowable.
 
2. As far as I can tell, the color coding is completely arbitrary.
 
3. If modern DAC's can't handle "yellow" (and thus supposedly unacceptable) +.6 dBFS peaks, there is a much bigger problem. 
 
4. Lossy compression encoding is done in floating point, so clipping is effectively impossible in the encoder and lossy formats themselves. If any clipping occurs it thus has to happen when the decoder convert it back into PCM. And higher frequency content generally causes greater intersample peaks, but the highest frequencies are generally filtered out early in the lossy compression process. 
 
5. If you are doing a technical analysis and getting different results when metering with different meters, you need to figure out what various meters are actually reporting. Especially if you want to claim you are measuring "TRUE PEAK".
 
6. Clipping causes distortion. So does aggressive limiting. Making a judgment on using a product based the former while ignoring the latter doesn't make any sense to me.
2017/07/01 19:42:10
bitflipper
mister happy
Inter Sample Peaking only happens, by its very explicit definition, at one half the sampling frequency. In other words, an Inter Sample Peak in a 44.1kHz data stream can only occur as a blip lasting 1/22500 seconds.
 
No one can actually hear a 1/22500 second blip.
 
If the digital over lasts ANY longer than 1/22500 seconds in a 44.1kHz data stream it is, by its very definition, no longer an Inter Sample Peak; it is an "OVER".
 
Inter Sample Peaks may have been an audible problem on ancient 8kHz phone lines. With contemporary digital audio production, the periodic re-discovery of Inter Sample Peaking as a unrecognized problem seems most likely to broil the groins of *engineers* that don't like math.
 

I fear you may have misinterpreted something you've read. Two facts are unclear from your description:
    1. Intersample peaks don't exist in digital audio
    2. Overs and ISPs are not directly related to one another
 
But you're right about ISPs not necessarily being a problem - if the amplifier has enough headroom to handle them. Unfortunately, battery-operated players often don't have much headroom and that's why we'd rather avoid ISPs.
 
You're also correct in saying that an ISP of 0.01 ms in duration is not going to be audible. However, you can't assume that an ISP exists for only a single cycle. In practice, a badly-mastered mix is likely to have thousands of ISPs per second, perhaps persisting throughout the entire song. That can definitely be audible on an iPod.
 
"Overs" are a different animal altogether. Technically, they don't exist either. Digital audio is incapable of exceeding all-ones, so there is nothing "over" that. 0dB is the absolute maximum. It's a completely legitimate value; we only use the word "over" when there are a consecutive series of 0dB values. There is no universal standard, but 12 in a row is a number employed by some meters. As you say, a blip that short is unlikely to be audible. But I have reviewed bad mixes with hundreds or even thousands of consecutive 0dB samples, and that's a clearly audible mistake that can't be blamed solely on a faulty limiter.
 
Overs are a much bigger problem than ISPs, because unlike ISPs they result in inharmonic distortion that has a much lower threshold of audibility than the harmonic distortion caused by ISPs. Why then, the emphasis on "true peak" ISP detection? Convenience, mostly. Well, there are two reasons. First, whenever the "true" peak value exceeds 0dB, it may suggest that the levels are generally too hot and therefore digital clipping may have also occurred. Second, it opens the possibility of analog clipping later on.
 
Still, an engineer who relies entirely on true peak values while ignoring overs is just being negligent.
 
You're on the right track being suspicious of these limiter tests. They suggest that if a limiter doesn't set the maximum after-conversion peaks to precisely the requested level, that means they are deficient and perhaps unusable. But that's rarely relevant. If I set my limit to -1.0 dBTP and the limiter gives me -0.3 dBTP, that's not going to have any impact on the subjective quality of my master.  To further complicate things, the limiter may have done a fine job, dutifully limiting my true peaks to <= 0dB, and I my end user could still end up with ISPs after decoding a lossy codec.
 
All that said, I'm still glad that the two limiters I use most are unassailably accurate.
2017/07/01 20:47:04
drewfx1
bitflipper
All that said, I'm still glad that the two limiters I use most are unassailably accurate.




But what if by being "more accurate" they in fact end up adding more distortion? 
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