• SONAR
  • Sonar + MP4 + Start Time = Mess ? (p.2)
2015/06/17 09:14:03
Brando
Sanderxpander
Sorry, but what does MP4 have to do with Quicktime? As far as I know they're unrelated. Apple Quicktime's proprietary format is .MOV, I thought. I've certainly been able to play MP4 files without Quicktime on my system. Can't say the same for .MOV files.

I wish Sonar would handle this simple feature better too. I'm all for practical solutions but buying video software just to create a good initial starting point is ridiculous. I get that Sonar is not a video editor but it does advertise being able to PLAY video for the purpose of scoring and this is a pretty fundamental issue, as evidenced by virtually everyone using VEGAS to do it. I'm not a programmer but I don't even see what start time has to do with whichever codec is in use. If I want it delayed by ten seconds, Sonar just needs to start playing it after ten seconds.

I think they're one and the same, as MP4 is an extension of Apple's Quicktime File Format, even though .Mov is QT's "native" format. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_14
I honestly understand Logic's approach in this - insisting on a particular format (period) that works well inside Logic. In Cake's case, AVI seems to be the weapon of choice, but navigating the quagmire of Codecs and converters is frustrating and is likely to result in a user giving up in frustration. Cake could help the cause by communicating better about the limitations and realities for one, and point to codecs and conversion tools (if not include) that would make the process more workable. I understand that they do not want to get into developmental quicksand in solving video problems - it's easier to say "Use Vegas" and blame Microsoft as the limiting factor in not providing a better working video solution. But when other Windows based applications (including low cost and freeware) play video files reliably that SONAR can't seem to handle, it definitely adds to the frustration. 
2015/06/17 09:34:59
rogeriodec
Brando
 it's easier to say "Use Vegas" and blame Microsoft as the limiting factor in not providing a better working video solution. But when other Windows based applications (including low cost and freeware) play video files reliably that SONAR can't seem to handle, it definitely adds to the frustration. 



Exactly!
But this is only one of the limitations of Sonar that is not seen by Cakewalk.
There are other worse, which has made me almost give up completely Sonar (after 20 years only following Cakewalk).
But after flirting with other DAW, I realized that everyone has faults. Things I love in Sonar are not in others.
So it's a difficult choice, but I ended up choosing to live with this wife, who has many faults, but also has many virtues that do not exist in any other.
2015/06/17 09:52:49
Anderton
Sanderxpander
I'm all for practical solutions but buying video software just to create a good initial starting point is ridiculous.

 
You don't have to, read what I said about using a converter.
 
Brando]
I understand that they do not want to get into developmental quicksand in solving video problems - it's easier to say "Use Vegas" and blame Microsoft as the limiting factor in not providing a better working video solution.

 
You don't have to buy or use Vegas! I just recommend Vegas because it's such a great video editing program for Windows. You can take "the Logic approach" and do a format conversion. If you search on "free MP4 to AVI converter" you'll get pages of returns.
 
Microsoft and Apple chose different native formats for their operating systems. It's easiest to work within those constraints. To work outside that box requires additional work/resources. Even Vegas took a while to support MP4. Apparently Apple didn't think it is was worth the effort to make Logic work outside that box (and Apple has virtually unlimited resources); it's not surprising Cakewalk decided likewise. Why put effort into development when there are so many free/simple converters available?
 
Of course like any program SONAR has limitations, but it seems counter-productive to want a solution for something that already has a simple solution. I think it would be a better use of Cake's time to solve issues that are unique to SONAR.
2015/06/17 10:02:37
Anderton
Sanderxpander
Sorry, but what does MP4 have to do with Quicktime? As far as I know they're unrelated. Apple Quicktime's proprietary format is .MOV, I thought.



The identifier values in MP4 family files is Apple Inc., and they use AAC or Apple Lossless compression. MP4 is very much Apple. MOV is Apple's "container" for a variety of file types. (I'm not sure, but I think that if you know the file type in the MOV container, you can just type in a different suffix and it will be recognized by Windows if there's a suitable codec installed.)
 

I've certainly been able to play MP4 files without Quicktime on my system.

 
Then something installed an MP4 codec, probably a media player. I'm pretty sure that if you just install Windows, the system's media player will not play MP4 files. 
2015/06/17 10:09:13
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?  Any other particulars? Maybe I should start a new thread?
 
I'm set to score a silent film in a couple of months, so I'm searching for info now.
 
If someone could make a "Scoring Film in Sonar" tutorial, I'd pay good money for it. Even if it involved other programs needed for the process.
2015/06/17 10:15:33
Anderton
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?



WMV works equally well, and the file sizes can be much smaller (even at their highest resolution). Also note that there are different "flavors" of AVI, just like there are different "flavors" of MOV. I have yet to find an AVI variant SONAR couldn't handle, but I may not be looking hard enough 
2015/06/17 10:18:34
Resonant Serpent
Anderton
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?



WMV works equally well, and the file sizes can be much smaller (even at their highest resolution). Also note that there are different "flavors" of AVI, just like there are different "flavors" of MOV. I have yet to find an AVI variant SONAR couldn't handle, but I may not be looking hard enough 




Awesome. Thank you for the information.
2015/06/17 10:46:41
Jimbo 88
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?  Any other particulars? Maybe I should start a new thread?
 
I'm set to score a silent film in a couple of months, so I'm searching for info now.
 
If someone could make a "Scoring Film in Sonar" tutorial, I'd pay good money for it. Even if it involved other programs needed for the process.




 
I did a video years ago.  It is out of date 'cause Sonar's video playback has changed.  I only generate AVI files now.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9Ico1HgC0
 
Hope it helps....
 
Also check this out...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFEvnOKOio
 
 
2015/06/17 10:50:48
Brando
Anderton
You don't have to buy or use Vegas! I just recommend Vegas because it's such a great video editing program for Windows. You can take "the Logic approach" and do a format conversion. If you search on "free MP4 to AVI converter" you'll get pages of returns.



Craig - no disrespect intended, and my post was not directed at you specifically, but more to Cakewalk. The common (on these forums) "solution" to "Just Use Vegas" has been echoed repeatedly by many users who like you have figured out how best to get around the limits of SONAR. I have always valued your input, and have great admiration for your refusal to "blame the tools" - to post solutions to inherent limitations in the software. Your focus is clearly on finding a way to make it work. Period. And that's as it should be.
All of that helps the user base to get the job done. 
That being said, as a user of SONAR, I suggest that SONAR could be better in this respect out of the box. However that's achieved is largely a business decision, and I understand that SONAR was never intended to be a video editor. Even better communication of what works, which Codecs, conversion tools etc would go a long way to making users more aware of what the real capabilities are. Be up front - it does this, doesn't do that...Is unlikely to ever do that.
The exact same thing can be said about Staff View - "use Notion/Finale/Sibelius/Digital Performer/Cubase" just apologizes for the inherent limitations within the program in this respect. (Yes - it helps people who really need to do so to get their work done and that's important too).
To echo what rogeriodec said above, I still think SONAR is the best DAW out there, and there is so much more about it that I love and couldn't work without. Nothing wrong with working on the few wrinkles, grey hairs and love handles though - or pointing them out - (all in the family).
2015/06/17 11:04:32
Resonant Serpent
Jimbo 88
Resonant Serpent
So, AVI is the best format to import into Sonar?  Any other particulars? Maybe I should start a new thread?
 
I'm set to score a silent film in a couple of months, so I'm searching for info now.
 
If someone could make a "Scoring Film in Sonar" tutorial, I'd pay good money for it. Even if it involved other programs needed for the process.




 
I did a video years ago.  It is out of date 'cause Sonar's video playback has changed.  I only generate AVI files now.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh9Ico1HgC0
 
Hope it helps....
 
Also check this out...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShFEvnOKOio
 
 




Thank you!
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