AndertonDifferent people have different needs.

This is one key point I think. The other is that to stay in business Cakewalk need to sell Sonar in sufficient quantities to ensure Gibson aren't forced to decide the returns aren't sufficient to justify Cakewalk getting adequate funding or even continuing.

My personalised "ideal Sonar package" wouldn't need to include any audio loops because I don't use them. I can without guitar amp simulations. I have no great need for software synths, most of my synth preferences tend towards analogue hardware and a few digital oddballs with very distinctive characteristics such as Waldorf's Q or Blofeld. So more loops, more amp sims, more softsynths are unlikely to persuade me to upgrade.

But those things are what might persuade someone else to upgrade or buy Sonar for the first time and so increase the user/customer base.

Which means I don't object to such things being included and paying for them as part of a package because without a large enough customer base Sonar will not continue, which means that the stuff I buy Sonar for would no longer be there either. So including components that are not particularly attractive to me but are to others helps me indirectly. Which is the case for all of us, unless our personal custom perfect (and affordable) DAW package would sell enough to keep a company in business.

 
 

fireberd
I too agree.  "Meat" not "fluff".    Many will like all the loops, presets but not all of us.  

 
+1
 
"Quality, not quantity". 
 
As a 'serious' music producer who takes my art seriously, loops are not how i come-up with a listenable world-class song according to me (lucky i steer my own ship).
A loop here, a loop there, maybe, and only for a small part of the break-down in the song, and only if the loop is usable to begin with and well recorded, but i find that too many pre-done loops have already been processed to all hell, and there's not much room for more custom mixing/processing without it sounding overly stepped-on, feel me? So why would i bother?
Any EDM producer worth his salt doesn't use loops, the others who do are cop-out wannbies, they aren't producers, they're try-hard kiddies with kiddies toys putting-out kiddy childish monotonous sound. They give EDM a bad name.
There are good and bad examples of any genre of music, whether Country&Western or Rock or Blues or R&B or Pop or House or trap or whatever, but you don't create a good example of any music by using loops, that's for sure. The more 'unprocessed' a loop is the better, assuming it's ever needed or called-on for service in the first place. I don't need a loop that's already got 2 cents worth of fuddy-duddy compression and EQ all over it. Raw and ready, that's what we need, let us do our own processing in the mix.
 
My friend phoned me tonight and told me how he has 80,000 songs downloaded, and then he said they are all in MP3 high-quality 192mbps; LOL, this world needs help, who is responsible for this mess? This younger generation hasn't got a clue, i feel sorry for them. On hearing him say that i laughed at him, and said "You gotta be kidding me, bro, are you for real?"
 
There is a great value DAW out there (which i wont name), but the sounds bundled with it are compressed Ogg Vorbis, and i simply refuse to buy into such a DAW on principle alone. And after a big row with the developers and trying to appeal to their better judgment, i couldn't get them to budge. Some people just don't get it. This world worries me. Ignorant apathy and stupidity abounds, no wonder that DAW can't capture a respectable slice of the market, they just refuse to wake-up to themselves.
 
 
 

jackson white
It's NOT about the cost/value of THIS upgrade or whether AD2 is any good or not. It's how the membership model will evolve.
 

1. Core - Defined as "proprietary DAW features and capability" not developed and marketed elsewhere by 3rd parties. 
2. I place greater value on "core" features and improvements than 3rd party bundles. It's worth noting that we don't actually know what CW pays for AD, if anything. Perhaps AD is paying CW. 

 

 
Indeed!
 
The benefit of Cubase and Logic Pro X is that they don't resort to third-party add-ons, and that's what i find appealing. How many issues have users of Sonar ran into with these included third-party add-ons? Not to mention the registration hassles and separate accounts etc. What a pain in the ass! I just wanna make music, not fuss-around with all these other requirements!
 
If one takes a closer look at Logic Pro X, it has a 'multitude' of brand spanking new high-quality Acoustic Drumkits included, easily on-par with Addictive Drums, no need for registration or separate accounts.
Logic pro X has built-in proprietary vocal pitch-correction easily on-par with Melodyne, no need for registration or serial numbers or separate accounts or separate installation, feel me? It's all messy, messy, messy. That's the impression.
Logic Pro X has it's own custom Software Amps etc easily on-par with any third-party offerings.
If one takes a closer look at Logic Pro X, it has 'all' it's own plugins and sounds plus high-quality Reverb, no need for dicking-around with third-party accounts, and all installed in one go, that's how it should be! Streamlined and fuss-free, and everything installed in one go with nothing more to worry about. This would be a much better approach. I hate third-party add-ons when it comes to associated accounts and registration and serial numbers etc. If it wasn't for Apples rip-off strategy with their hardware, i would not hesitate to jump onboard and use Logic Pro X without looking back. The third-party products that come with Sonar and the associated hassles are the only thing keeping me from diving-in unreservedly. IMO Cakewalk need to find a way to go proprietary with everything. As it stands, let's be honest, from where i'm standing Sonar is a great DAW, but it does have the appearance of a DAW with a messy slew of Motley-crew add-ons; not a good look really. Just sayin.
 
Cakewalk doing deals with these companies is not helpful to us users, how can it be? I wish Cakewalk would arrange for these companies to simply license the algos and include the product as a standard in-house proprietary product so that we don't have to mess-around, one-step installation with no hiccups.
 
Tracktion is a $59 DAW, and yet it comes with Melodyne Essential and full ARA integration, so what gives?
 
The quality of the third-party stuff in Sonar is good, yes, and we want it, yes, but please Cakewalk, find a way to include these as in-house Sonar native, that way we wont have the extra hassle of various accounts and serial numbers and separate installations etc, i beg of you.
 
Anyway, on the other matter, why would i want loops when we would be better-off with a drum-machine full of high-quality samples so i can create my own so-called loops? That would be much more useful and appropriate. Cakewalk using these other cheap easy loops to garner a false sense of value from the users and potential buyers, pleeeeeeease, leave it out, don't need it. EDM DRUM-MACHINE THANKYOU VERY MUCH!! Packed full of uncompressed, UNPROCESSED high-quality 24bit samples...
 
And do't start beating on me, i like Sonar very much, it's got heart and character and is very competent, but so what, it's still got some blemishes, and needs some renovations. I like my mum too, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have foibles or shortcomings.

 

  I'm a long time BFD2 user. I couldn't justify $150.00 upgrade to BFD3.
 AD with 3 kits being included with Sonar Platinum all for $150.00 was a awesome bonus for me. 
 
  I have a drummer trigger e-drums. Micing up a real kit and getting a good sound out of it is difficult in a basement studio. So it's a trade off. Great sounding drums or nuance and feel of real kit. 
 
 

Drone7
 
 

fireberd
I too agree.  "Meat" not "fluff".    Many will like all the loops, presets but not all of us.  

 
+1
 
"Quality, not quantity". 
 
As a 'serious' music producer
 

 
Nice post and I see your points. I do not like the separate registration hoops I have to remember to jump through for upgrades/installs. I agree with you whole heartily on that point.
 
I can only take your word for how well Logic's offerings compete with 3rd party. All I can say is I used and really liked Logic from the E-Magic Atari years up to the end of the Logic PC version at I think 5.51. Still have the dongle and software. As far as that goes, Cakewalk's own session drummer and studio drums are usable with a few minor tweaks. But they don't compete shoulder to shoulder with AD IMO.
 
Anyway, you sound like a cool dude. 
 
 
 

mudgel
No offence Craig but I hope that the extra membership content isn't going to be 12 months of presets and loops. I want some real substance updates and features to the core Sonar product.

 
Of course! But I'm not a coder, I don't contribute any of that.
 
However, I think a lot of people are missing the point about loops, amp sims, etc. Part of SONAR's core audience is songwriters. Not many DAWs are agile enough for this but SONAR seems to have found a sweet spot for song creation.
 
Loops serve two purposes. First, really good loops can be inspirational. While going through Brian's loop there were several that just begged me to wrap a song around them. Also, if you're familiar with what I do, you'll know I like to add interesting twists. For each of his main loops, I cut the notes and re-arranged them to create variations with the same timbre and note selection. Having these variations available makes the loops come alive compared to just having the same thing play over and over and over and over. Brian approved all the changes, in fact he thought they were great. 
 
Second, there's no law that says loops have to be part of the final production. I have a bunch of what I call "placeholder" loops I've created, e.g., just 8th note bass notes on the tonic or doing I-V. I bring those in while songwriting to fill out the bottom end, then after the song has taken shape, replace them with "played" parts.
 
The loops I'm making are designed expressly to either serve a purpose, be inspirational, or provide something different. The world doesn't need more house music drum loops. That's why I'm working on a bunch of loops built around zouk and other Caribbean rhythms. Lay those suckers into a track, and I defy people not to get up and dance. 
 
These loops take me weeks and sometimes months to create. I've done only a handful of loop libraries during my career, but every one was a top seller for the companies that sold them. I believe the reason why is that they're "not just another loop library."
 
As to the amp sims, I think the testimonials from users tell the story - drag them in, and start playing. You don't have to search through presets, create a patch from a rack, or lose time during the song creation process. You want a hard rock sound? Drag in the Hard Rock amp - done. Maybe do a few tweaks, so you have the advantages of a preset and the ability to create personalized variations.
 
If anything, I want to do more things that just drag and drop into a project and make life easier and songwriting faster. For example I created a plug-in that converts humbuckers to single-coil sounds. It has one knob that selects either "more single coil sound" or "less single coil sound." Sure, if you want a single coil sound you could put your Les Paul away, drag out your Strat if you have one, tune it, and start recording. Or you can take 3 seconds to drag in a plug-in that does the job. Same with an ADT plug-in I use all the time. Drag in, double vocal. Done.
 
Don't think you can't use this stuff until you try it...

Cakewalk is in a rather unique position as one of the earliest PC-only music softwares.  The others were cross-OS or mac.  And from the people here and out in the non-virtual world most SONAR users - a plurality if not majority, seem to be guitarists.  Singer songwriters or rock and rollers.  SSW's are easy to cater to - they just need a glorified tape machine to record.  Rocker need a little more than that - since drum machines have replaced most live drums.  It takes a lot of money to do drums live right or some serious engineering chops and a bit of luck.  So it ain't surprising that Cake offers good drum programs.  You and I might not need it because we do music w/o percussion or use real drums or, more likely, have favored drum replacement software.  But a lot of Cake users just want some decent sounds to jam over and don't want to spend as much as they did on their DAW for drums (or synths, for that matter).
 
A lot of musicians want to be authentic - banish the thought of using some one else's loops, or even sounds.  Others relish the thought of having world-class musicians and studios on their humble home productions.  Cakewalk needs to cater to them, too.  Hence all the midi/audio loops (Cake was the first DAW if you skip Acid, I believe, that incorporated audio stretching).  Although EDM and unintelligent Dance Music practitioners (sorry Trance etc.) don't make up the majority of users, there are still plenty that do use CAKE and appreciate the starting points (Thanks Craig for keeping that updated!).  About the only users Cake hasn't thrown many bones to lately are the notation crowd, so I try to shut up when they act disappointed the latest version includes no notation upgrades.  I hope Cake does, though I doubt that will shut them up until Cake matches Forte etc.  Gotta love them boys (and girls!) though. 
 
If you can imagine the musician, Cake, being PC-only, has to at least consider their concerns (and yes, being the Established PC-only software is a lot more egalitarian than MAC, since a proportion of users just get into music on a lark since they have a PC or their parents do).
 
I personally hope Cake continues to appeal to this bigger audience.  That keeps prices down (if you believe in capitalism) and provides the most quantity of tools, too.  I find the PC effects and Overloud toys and a bunch of other stuff up there with any other 3rd party software which saves me enough money to buy that which isn't included.  It is a great deal and I'll even put up w/ Cake upgrading notation software I won't use and even if I have to buy that weepable wavetable synth to fill out my collection of synth types.  A good trade off for the quality and quantity I do get. 
 
@

musicroom
Nice post and I see your points. I do not like the separate registration hoops I have to remember to jump through for upgrades/installs. I agree with you whole heartily on that point.
 
I can only take your word for how well Logic's offerings compete with 3rd party. 

I think anyone at Cakewalk would agree there are certain advantages to being owned by a company with billions of dollars in the bank and that posts mind-boggling profits every quarter. Gibson isn't there yet, but give it a few years 

One more thing about loops...and then I'll shut up. 
 
Like pitch correction, loops can be a victim of their own success. When used properly, you can't tell loops are being used so they don't get credit. There are accomplished, human drummers who have heard my music and are 100% convinced that I'm using a real drummer...but they're loops.
 
I'd be the first to agree there are a lot of crap loops out there. But I won't stop going to restaurants because McDonald's exists  

tlw

AndertonDifferent people have different needs.

This is one key point I think. The other is that to stay in business Cakewalk need to sell Sonar in sufficient quantities to ensure Gibson aren't forced to decide the returns aren't sufficient to justify Cakewalk getting adequate funding or even continuing.

My personalised "ideal Sonar package" wouldn't need to include any audio loops because I don't use them. I can without guitar amp simulations. I have no great need for software synths, most of my synth preferences tend towards analogue hardware and a few digital oddballs with very distinctive characteristics such as Waldorf's Q or Blofeld. So more loops, more amp sims, more softsynths are unlikely to persuade me to upgrade.

But those things are what might persuade someone else to upgrade or buy Sonar for the first time and so increase the user/customer base.

Which means I don't object to such things being included and paying for them as part of a package because without a large enough customer base Sonar will not continue, which means that the stuff I buy Sonar for would no longer be there either. So including components that are not particularly attractive to me but are to others helps me indirectly. Which is the case for all of us, unless our personal custom perfect (and affordable) DAW package would sell enough to keep a company in business.

^ This x 100,000
 
Look folks this isn't about catering to individual needs.  If you don't like AD2, don't use it.  No one says you have to use it.  No one says you have to use the Nomad plugins.  It's value add, and if it widens the customer base, I'm all for it.
 
Despite being specialized for the PC, Sonar doesn't lead the market in Windows DAWs.  Right now it's Cubase and Reaper, and even Studio One and Ableton have taken a sizable chunk of the market.  I think Sonar is of better value than those products, and continues to be my no 1 DAW choice, but the market has to grow.
 
Cubase is able to develop their VSTi packages in house.  I haven't used Groove Agent, so I couldn't tell you how it compares to AD2 or BFD or any of the other 3rd party drum samplers, but the fact is it's there packaged with Cubase.  Logic X I'm pretty sure is either a break even buisness model or run at a loss.  Magic X was purchased for Apple for Garage Band, and with the code base being from Logic X they can continue to develop synths and plugins for GB, and port them seamlessly into Logic.
 
CW has the power of Gibson behind them, but I'm sure they still have to turn a profit, and have fixed budgets for projects.
 
I understand people's comments here, but you guys have to think big picture.  I've always been of the mind that there are too many DAWs on the market.  Something has to give, I can't see them all surviving.

Anderton
 
Loops serve two purposes. First, really good loops can be inspirational. While going through Brian's loop there were several that just begged me to wrap a song around them. Also, if you're familiar with what I do, you'll know I like to add interesting twists. For each of his main loops, I cut the notes and re-arranged them to create variations with the same timbre and note selection. Having these variations available makes the loops come alive compared to just having the same thing play over and over and over and over. Brian approved all the changes, in fact he thought they were great. 
 

Craig, reading your comments on loops (which I haven't used in quite some time) has got me interested in them. Are these loops available in the current Platinum version (what you've described above (which Brian approved))?  
 
(During the installation, I only recall seeing the Loopmaster and other loop based stuff that was included in X3).