• SONAR
  • Can someone explain why DSD is exciting? (p.5)
2015/01/21 08:27:29
BJN
If you have a DSD machine then there is no doubt about its fidelity.
It is not an indistinguishable, it is easily discernable compared to PCM at 24/96 (As far as I have compared)
 
It has been a round a while and is as already mentioned popular amongst Field and remote Recordists for film; Orchestral; acoustic ensembles etc.
 
DSD shines in its capture dynamics, there is a notable increase in detail especially upper harmonic content. 
 
It has also gained repute in capturing a mix as it sounds from the console with no loss. 
 
Where it has less relevance is in recording via soft synths and the limits of most electric guitar music.
Also a multitrack of PCM is not going to benefit in being exported to DSD; off a console of an otb mix yes.
 
As a capture for otb mastering yes.
 
DSD editing is crude. You could edit out sections of a song where space exits to cut just like with tape. There is no crossfading except via analogue. 
Stringing a few Recorders together you can make a mutitrack and like the good old days perfect your part and record it. No drop in or punch in except at a silent point, just like with tape.
 
So what can you do? You could use a DSD recorder to capture a perfect vocal take, convert down to PCM and edit from there. The benefit is hardly worth it but here is where it could get exciting with Tascam and Sonar.
The quality of the DSD Recorders preamps and converters and the ability to accept better then the onboard allows 3rd party development or inclusion of already quality devices in the studio will help gain acceptence.
 
But any edge you can get in the music industry has always been sought and adapted and this goes for sound.
So if you can capture a Pop lead vocal only on DSD and convert it down it will probably still have a slight edge over a pure PCM recorded vocal. Might. I don't know for sure. I have wondered though.
 
Perhaps someone could test it out.
My bet is there is a slight edge over DSD even when converted back down over that of PCM.
 
 
 
 
 
 
2015/01/24 12:36:37
Muziekschuur at home
Philips had a special designteam on DSD. After a while they started to call it Protec or something like that. There has allso been a 48 track DSD recorder. It was called a Genex GX9048. But after you had captured it you only could mix out analog of off it. At a time all major studios were running Protools. No longer setup to work with analog feeds... Engineers who were not really seeing the potential. 
 
PC's have become very powerfull. So maybe there will be a new product in the future. The conversion to DXD is a great way to fly. So for now you will know you will have a piece of software wich will be able to take the heat. And has been ready for it since severall versions.... 
 
Sonar has one other trick up it's sleeve. It can work with 64bit audio files. and be THAT accurate.... And together with stuff like the FREEZE option on all tracks you can allways target your cpu power on the next target.... So even a moderate pc nowadays could be of use in what will be a heavey lift....  (24 bit 384 khz (DXD = what DSD to PCM conversion would give)
2015/02/15 14:42:15
drummaman
Greetings All,
THIS is an amazing thread - and the ideas and info here is yet another reason I love being a part of the Cakewalk/Sonar Family!!
 
Kudos on various levels to Messieurs Duffy and Borthwick.
 
I recently purchased a Pono mobile audio player through their Kickstarter campaign.
I jumped in with both feet because -
A) it plays high def audio to 192kHz/24-bit and now the most recent update allows it to play DSD files.
B) It features audio output circuitry designed by engineers at Ayre Acoustics.
 
Pono naysayers abound, but with just FLAC files made from CD's I know I'm never going back to MP3 as my main mobile audio format - the sound is truly amazing compared to MP3.
 
The Pono forum is now all abuzz with DSD downloads, and there are references to other manufacturers like Onkyo who are jumping into the "hi def" audio arena.
 
I just downloaded DSD and PCM samples from Ayre's site, and as a personal observation -
the DSD files downloaded MUCH faster!
 
As mentioned earlier in this thread, with the advances in technology I can see this entering the high-end consumer market, and eventually more mobile devices.
 
Ayre Acoustics have a nice article on DSD vs PCM, along with sample downloads, on their site:
 http://www.ayre.com/insights_dsdvspcm.htm
 
Mr. Hansen sums it up:
"I think that those who take the time to compare the sound quality of the playback to be very illuminating, and should put to rest many of the myths that Sony created around DSD when they first were trying to recapture the revenues lost by the expiring CD patents."
 
As also mentioned in this forum thread, DSD isn't the magical elixir Sony touted to be, but my belief is that the DSD format (and mobile players that can play DSD files) may open the door to hi-def audio streaming and downloads for mobile devices.
 
...then we can finally sink that last nail into the MP3 coffin...and bury it for good.
 
Cheers to Cakewalk and TASCAM for their foresight!
MG
2015/06/05 18:43:39
interpolated
What am I missing? Do I need a 1-bit DSD DAC between Sonar and my file output, as it keeps crashing for me.
 
2015/06/05 18:50:33
Anderton
interpolated
What am I missing? Do I need a 1-bit DSD DAC between Sonar and my file output, as it keeps crashing for me.



If I understand your issue correctly, SONAR exports in DSD format. So you need something that can play a DSD file format...not just import/export.
2015/06/05 23:02:26
drummaman
I concur.
 
Sonar will import DSD audio, but convert it to whatever your project is set to.
 
I just did a quick import from Native DSD (https://www.nativedsd.com/) of a new 64fs sample track, and with my project set for 88.1kHz, 24-bit - and that's what Sonar converted it to. (iZotope's RX confirmed the converted track's sample rate and bit depth.)
 
So to actually play the file in the native DSD format, you will need a player with that feature.
As previously mentioned, the Pono player plays DSD native (.dsd/.dsf) formats, which sound amazing for a portable player. (Other portable players with DSD capability can be found, as well as plenty of high-end "home stereo" units.)
 
The sound, I feel, is as close to analog as you can get.
 
But even without a player - it's a great archival format.
 
The "Info" tab on the Native DSD site has a great "About DSD" primer that's worth a glance, and Ayre mentioned in my previous post also has some great info.
 
Cheers,
MG
2015/06/06 00:01:05
konradh
I copied the 16 v 8 samples to a cassette so I could take the test later in my car.
 
Seriously, I couldn't tell the difference and got 6/10, mostly guessing. The 8 bit sounded more compressed to me (less dynamic range) in the example, but then when I got to the test, they all sounded the same.
2015/06/06 02:47:52
interpolated
The problem is, the file render gets to the end and before converting the TMP file, Sonar crashes. Would it not be the case I need to use a DAC capable of the high-sample rate? I have a portable player which can playback 1-bit DAC?
 
My sound device can do 192K/24-bit so sample rate shouldn't be a major issue?! Or will it be? I just need a straight answer.
 
2015/06/06 08:11:51
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
To export a DSD file you don't need any hardware. To play it natively without transcoding to WAV you need DSD capable audio hardware like the TASCAM DA-3000. 
If you are crashing on export you are possibly running into a bug somewhere. Please log a bug and submit a dump file for the crash and we can look at it. If you can provide a link to a simple project file somewhere that reproduces the problem we can also troubleshoot that way.
2015/06/06 08:42:50
Royal Yaksman

Can someone explain why DSD is exciting?

^To the OP. I suppose it could be because of this:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=DSD
 
Wait! Sonar contains one of these?!! How do we get it out?
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