John
I hate to break it to you all but Sonar will always have bugs. This is between you and me only. Don't spread it around.

 That even happens with the "grass is always greener" DAWs and the ones that are proprietary or need proprietary hardware.
  Even DAWs that have released an update after 4 months will have some problems.
 
  The other side of the coin is with this membership model people want something new every month. People like new whether it works or not.
 
 I like what some developers like Image Line, Propeller Heads, and Ableton do is have public BETAs.  The membership model doesn't allow for this.  
 
 If one is having a problem maybe they could put more detail and see if we can reproduce it.
 
 

S

kitekrazy1

John
I hate to break it to you all but Sonar will always have bugs. This is between you and me only. Don't spread it around.

 That even happens with the "grass is always greener" DAWs and the ones that are proprietary or need proprietary hardware.
  Even DAWs that have released an update after 4 months will have some problems.
 
  The other side of the coin is with this membership model people want something new every month. People like new whether it works or not.
 
 I like what some developers like Image Line, Propeller Heads, and Ableton do is have public BETAs.  The membership model doesn't allow for this.  
 
 If one is having a problem maybe they could put more detail and see if we can reproduce it.
 
 

Cakewalk recently put out a call for beta testers. They obviously got the numbers they want because the ad (sticky post) has now been pulled. Know that's not like a public beta but like you said the current model may not lend itself to that.

I did say  keep calm.. Nevermind... The inevitable fallout.

Anderton
It was a different and much simpler world in terms of the permutations and combinations of computer systems, additional software loaded on to hard drives, sizes of projects, hardware options, operating systems, shift in focus of computers and the experience computer manufacturers want to deliver to consumers, etc.

I don't want to dwell on this point too much, but this is not true to the extent you may think it is. Yes, there are more options. On the other hand, there are standardised driver models like ASIO, WDM, WASAPI - compare that to the early days when you basically had to hard-code in support for each piece of hardware yourself. And inside the computer, hardware has actually homogenised rather than diversified (fairly standard instruction set, bus architecture, internal devices are PCI-E and external are USB (at least on Windows)), etc.
 

As Noel has noted, changes in the Microsoft OS itself are what exposed issues in loading older 32-bit programs with BitBridge. No way BitBridge could have anticipated what changes Microsoft was going to make five or more years into the future.

Sure, but to be fair, I'm not complaining about compatibility with 3rd party software. I appreciate that is awkward, and I've moved to native 64 bit plugins where possible.
 

This is why Cakewalk's decision to allow users to keep software and freeze their systems at whatever point they want was a brilliant, and I believe totally underappreciated, move because it recognizes that the computing environment is becoming more and more of a moving target.

I don't understand what decision you are referring to, because surely this is how retail software has worked forever - it doesn't change without you asking it to (apart from browsers and the like).

mudgel
I'm sorry but what you're saying is not backed up by what's happening. Even the drum maps that you keep going on about are not broken as you suggest. There a one step work around.

There's a one step workaround that we're lucky we found - because, as shipped, the drum maps were not working when used the way they were intended. I'm grateful that someone found a fix but that doesn't change my core concern from the start of this thread - that these monthly updates are, more often than not, shipping some real glitches that severely interrupt workflow.

mettelus
This thread sort of embodies the shift in the forums for me... those motivated by self-gain, the sycophants, and the poor end user trying to make a valid point. I am not as shocked as some to see a reduction in the number of regular posters.
 
If someone voices an issue they often get badgered until they either give up or cave in. Something to bear in mind with this "strategy" is that those people are paying the "self-gainers" salaries. The true "power" lies in the poor end user's wallet, and when they go "silent" that is a very bad sign.

If you are referring to me as a self-gainer, first, Cakewalk does not pay my salary but yes, the future of this company matters to me because I know the staff and I know they are extremely dedicated. I suppose I take the slights and comments about their incompetence personally because I know how much they care about SONAR and their customers, and I feel the criticisms about Cakewalk not knowing what they're doing are totally unjustified.
 
I have always tried to be transparent and patient, to the point of spending an entire Sunday afternoon trying to shed some light on the monthly development process, as well as correct some false statements which persist and repeated and therefore, are assumed to be true. I feel that someone should point out if factual information is not being presented.
 
If you look over my posts 49/50/53/55/58/62/66/71/79/88, every one related to the OP or answered a specific question/commented on a specific issue that was brought up. None of them badgers anyone; they present what I feel are fact-based insights related to issues brought up in the original post, and didn't get at all personal.
 
At #92 I started getting frustrated after seeing so many comments like these:
 

• "Now it's like Ground Hog Day the cycle resets to new release and uncertainness every month" (no, you don't have to update)
• "if a damning bug is introduced in that last release, the user will be faced with paying for a bug fix or rolling back to the 'best known version'" (Noel already stated that showstopper bugs would have a grace period if someone didn't renew)
• "Having a fixed time for releases inevitably bears the risk of releasing the software before enough time was spent for stability testing" (I've already stated multiple times that releases aren't based around times, times are based around releases - basically Cakewalk says "we'll release what we have that's ready to go on this date" - numerous things have been postponed over the past several months, including the Drum Replacer, for precisely this reason)
• "The difference is that there was neither pressure to ship something new every month" (but there is always at least something that can be shipped every month, so really, there's no pressure to come up with something; so far, "something" already exists. I'm sure some month the only thing that will be finished is content and bug fixes, but then I'd bet some people will complain "We want features, not content"...you can't win)
• "Unfortunately, the new membership model essentially mandates a monthly update" (see previous. Maybe some people are confused because there's a pay-as-you go monthly option, but that doesn't pay for a month; this isn't a subscription. It's pay to own.)
• "Yup you decide which regression bugs you want to live with, it's a feature" (I think having the safety net of a rollback "just in case" is a feature, not something to be mocked...I wish iOS allowed for that)
• "As pointed out before by others, a bug introduced in the last month I payed for, may not be fixed without paying again, even if it is a show stopper" (not true, as Noel has made clear)
• "Stating that the initial release of X3 was also premature without doing enough testing is not really the best excuse for doing not enough testing now" (it wasn't an excuse, I was pointing out that longevity in development is not the determining factor for reliability - and even then, people thought X3 much more stable than X2, so they must have been doing something right)
• "The short-sighted nature of most corporate software houses" (with comments about "The problem is the bean counters" - at Cakewalk engineering drives development, marketing markets what has been developed)
• "Look over there..." (which completely missed the point of covering how the process played out with another software company as a point of reference)

 
I am trying to shed light on the discussion because I respect the validity of the OP's premise, but there have been numerous suppositions and misstatements that interfere with a clear understanding of the monthly process. My comments are such that they may cause more people NOT to update immediately, but wait for a release or two (or ten, whatever)...or they may case more people to update immediately. I don't know, but it doesn't matter because those are decisions the user has to make based on their particular needs and circumstances.
 
If my comments are not seen as a genuine attempt to provide insights that I think the community will find worthwhile, then obviously I am not communicating what I intend to communicate, so I'm respectfully bowing out.

mudgel
I'm sorry but what you're saying is not backed up by what's happening. Even the drum maps that you keep going on about are not broken as you suggest. There a one step work around.

 

KylotanThere's a one step workaround that we're lucky we found - because, as shipped, the drum maps were not working when used the way they were intended. I'm grateful that someone found a fix but that doesn't change my core concern from the start of this thread - that these monthly updates are, more often than not, shipping some real glitches that severely interrupt workflow.

And let's be clear.. Having a workaround does not mean it's not broken.

Anderton

Doktor Avalanche
I don't think though the solution is to go back to X3 release cycle, the solution is to improve the exisiting monthly cycle to concentrate disruption in specific areas whilst improvements are made. And there's little doubt cakewalk's regression testing needs improvement looking at the recent and rather obvious drum map bug. All this is doable....

Yes, all it takes is resources. But if the negativity from people who claim that the software is "unuseable" (seriously?) keeps others from upgrading - despite all the extremely positive accolades from the many customers who are using the "unuseable" software - the resources won't be there.

 
Let's not be dismissive here - in the time between last night, when I hit the drum map problem, and today, when a random forum post gave me a workaround, Sonar was unusable for me. Sure, I could load it up, and I could create a new project. But I couldn't do any work on any of my existing projects, because the drums no longer played back. If a key feature is broken then the whole program is essentially broken for anybody who relies on that feature.
 

There was one person in the forums (sorry, I forget who) who didn't upgrade to Cambridge because he read all the "horror stories" but then someone (mudgel, maybe?) pointed out how easy it was to roll back. So he upgraded and didn't have any problems. But all that time, he didn't take advantage of the new features because others (who in many cases had system-specific bugs) scared him off.

And the flip side of that is that sometimes we're having to choose between features and usability instead of usability going up incrementally as we'd expect from increasingly mature software.
 

Look at the Drum Replacer. Several threads were started about how great it is. The threads that were started about problems have almost all been solved because the issues were trivial or pilot error. And there have been requests for additional features. Too bad you'll have to wait a year for them to be implemented...no, wait. It may only be a month or two. My bad.

I'm aware that I've made my position on this clear to you several times, but with all due respect to the work you and others have put in to the new features and content, it is worth almost nothing to me, personally. I have used literally none of the features or content on this page - http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Whats-New - and don't see that changing much in the future (maybe Mix Recall will come in handy in a couple of months, and I might use the Drum Replacer next year). What I want is stability (which we're getting, thanks devs), and feature reliability (which ebbs and flows like the tides). I don't mind new features - some of these will be useful to me one day - but I'd be more impressed if we got the Step Sequencer and Matrix View working well. Or if vertically selecting a bunch of clips didn't seem to randomly select other clips. Or little things like stopping the Piano Roll showing 6/8 on the grid as if it was 3/4.

Kylotan

Anderton
It was a different and much simpler world in terms of the permutations and combinations of computer systems, additional software loaded on to hard drives, sizes of projects, hardware options, operating systems, shift in focus of computers and the experience computer manufacturers want to deliver to consumers, etc.

I don't want to dwell on this point too much, but this is not true to the extent you may think it is. Yes, there are more options. On the other hand, there are standardised driver models like ASIO, WDM, WASAPI - compare that to the early days when you basically had to hard-code in support for each piece of hardware yourself. And inside the computer, hardware has actually homogenised rather than diversified (fairly standard instruction set, bus architecture, internal devices are PCI-E and external are USB (at least on Windows)), etc.

 
Well, I said I'd bow out but this is the kind of post that I do feel merits a reply ...everything you say is true on one level (although driver conflicts seem to be getting worse - like the video boards that freeze audio streaming because frame rate is more important), but there are also more plug-ins, VST vs. VST3, ARA, backwards compatibility issues, different types of copy protection, and I don't know about you but Microsoft seems to update Windows about once a week...and don't forget Noel's comments about changes in UAC and libraries. So there may be more hardware consistency, but when you get to the software that relates to it, I don't think things are getting better and a cursory look at ANY computer-based music software forum certainly seems to confirm this. Or maybe it's always been this way and I just haven't noticed...
 

Kylotan

AndertonAs Noel has noted, changes in the Microsoft OS itself are what exposed issues in loading older 32-bit programs with BitBridge. No way BitBridge could have anticipated what changes Microsoft was going to make five or more years into the future.

Sure, but to be fair, I'm not complaining about compatibility with 3rd party software. I appreciate that is awkward, and I've moved to native 64 bit plugins where possible.

 
One of my favorite quotes of all time was at PreSonuSphere, when someone asked Wolfgang Kundrus the best solution for running 32-bit programs with 64-bit Studio One. His answer was short and to the point: "Tell the manufacturers to develop 64-bit versions."
 

Kylotan

AndertonThis is why Cakewalk's decision to allow users to keep software and freeze their systems at whatever point they want was a brilliant, and I believe totally underappreciated, move because it recognizes that the computing environment is becoming more and more of a moving target.

I don't understand what decision you are referring to, because surely this is how retail software has worked forever - it doesn't change without you asking it to (apart from browsers and the like).

Well, you had referred to Cakewalk employing a subscription model. Based on the definition of subscription software (SaaS) from PC World, subscription software becomes "invalid" if you stop paying. With Cakewalk, if you stop paying, you can freeze the software at whatever point you want, the software keeps working, and if you don't make a lot of changes to your OS and operating environment, it will keep on working. I think that's great, because I know quite a few people who treat their computer more like a tape machine - when it's working the way they want, they don't touch it. They use a second computer for surfing the web etc.

Anderton
Well, I said I'd bow out but this is the kind of post that I do feel merits a reply ...

 
I'm glad it's not just me who does this