Someone has to go first!
 

I will definitely try Win10 on my home PC and see how it works. I have gotten along very well with Win8.1 on that machine.

But I do have legacy hardware. VS-100, and a ten year old Yamaha synth that uses USB drivers to connect.

I'm liking it quite a lot for general use and I'm digging the new audio and midi programming interfaces but I sure wouldn't use it in a commercial environment for music production (or for any other business use) until it's been thoroughly vetted.
 
One interesting aspect is that w10 is another stepping stone on the road to a single OS for all devices and they've surfaced a lot of capability for developers to target all those devices. It's much easier now to release a single product that will run on desktops, tablets and phones. This is getting fun.

Thanks Kevin... That link was really useful
 
I compiled some edited highlights from the MS developer Pete Brown, weirdly enough I think I've met him before at a MS developer conference...
 
Reading through this. I 'm not as excited as I was.... esp about the latency improvements...
 

Psychlist1972
Windows 10 is free for 8.1 and 7 users for first year after release.
We're going to start delivering Windows as a service, with more frequent, smaller updates vs. large version rollouts.

 
This is the bit that frightens me...
So free meaning free forever or just free for a year? Everytime this is mentioned there seems to be smoke and mirrors.

Psychlist1972
Yes, I'm hearing loud and clear that TB is important. I can't make any promises as to when/how, but the message is being heard in Redmond and it'll be something we bring to the appropriate teams in OSG (Operating Systems Group) at MS.

Psychlist1972
We're looking into this for certain. I can't say if/when it'll be put in the platform, but we plan to have deeper conversations with TB partners soon.
Also, I know Intel is already working on an updated TB that is even faster. It's a never ending arms race.
Personal, not Microsoft, opinion follows:
I'm a bit concerned about TB adoption and whether or not it will have longevity. It's an expensive cable, a relatively large connector (thickness wise), and a proprietary solution that has to be licensed. It's not an open standard. The expense of controllers and connectors means that almost no devices bother to support daisy chaining. End result is that most people with more than one or two TB devices have to buy expensive hubs.
It's also an Intel solution that is very PC-centric, so it cuts out mobile/ARM devices, which are increasingly popular for music making. At some point, I assume we'll hear folks asking why they can't use a TB device with their iPad. It's not really as simple as implementing the connector and the driver. The entire architecture is very Intel-specific.
Project BBQ think tanks looking at future audio connectors for devices have discarded TB because of size and its proprietary nature and expense. Instead, they recommend pursuing USB 3.1/C
For pro shops and studios, it seems to me that IEEE 802.1 AVB could be a better solution.
End personal opinion

Not great news for Thunderbolt as these are fairly recent discussions...

Psychlist1972
I have no history on the TB side, so nothing I can comment on intelligently there.
ASIO: Not sure what you're asking us to do there. ASIO drivers are created by each device manufacturer, and the spec and tech are owned by Steinberg.
We have no intention to extinguish ASIO. It's the best experience on the desktop for DAWs. At the same time, it's not necessarily the right type of driver to use across the board. There are numerous reasons, including that it would require hardware manufacturers building ASIO to create ARM and other compiles they wouldn't normally do (starting in Windows 10, apps run on everything from tiny IoT/embedded devices to phones, tablets, PCs, giant boardroom screens, Xbox, HoloLens, and more. We do have low latency work coming that will cover all those devices. If you're interested in absolute lowest latency, however, custom ASIO drivers are still the best bet,.
Also, in case you skipped some posts, we're not waving away TB. I simply needed an education in its importance. Finally, not sure where you see us waving away important stuff in favor of trivial stuff. There's a lot of work going into Windows 10 and beyond, including significant audio work targeted to pro audio users. That's why I'm here at NAMM, spending time meeting with a LOT of companies.

 
Predictable distancing from ASIO (hey kids ASIO is Steinberg, we want it to be Microsoft! but we can't deliver it so let's just say we will improve it later and then all your base are belong to us), so then perhaps a NEW driver model!??
 

Psychlist1972
New MIDI Synth: We're looking into this, but don't have a short-term plan for this just yet. We understand how important this is, especially to game developers. We don't want to just do something simple and only marginally useful here, though (like just modernize the sounds).
Low-latency audio for DAWs without ASIO: We still recommend using ASIO. The low latency work we're doing in WASAPI and similar is primarily for scenarios where you wouldn't use ASIO (like Store apps vs desktop DAWs)
USB Audio 2 driver in-box: Yes, we've heard this one a lot. It's on our backlog, but I can't commit to when exactly it makes it into the product. After the infrastructure work we've done, it's probably the #1 request.
Support forums: that's a difficult one. Whenever you get into something that is niche (and in the big picture this stuff is niche, even though it is the world to us) then you'll see expertise drop off. I think musician/audio focused boards are the more practical place because you'll get lots of peer support as well.
We're doing a ton in Windows 10, which we'll talk about at Build. Many of those things won't be surfaced as "features" immediately, but are more infrastructure. Some (like the evolution of the new MIDI API Jason and I announced at the last build event) are very visible features. To set expectations, the new features (not the bug fixes, optimizations, etc.) won't impact desktop DAW users much, but are more for enabling app developers. The infrastructure work crosses all of the above.
The good thing is that we're going to be streaming out regular updates after Windows 10 RTM. There will be no 3 year wait for new audio work, and most users will just get the bits.

Psychlist1972
2. We showed the low-latency audio stack and APIs in the day 2 keynote. Demos were bluetooth drum sticks and a simple drum app that played samples.

Psychlist1972
Now that I'm off the plane, here's what Bala talked about in the Windows 10 audio/video session:
Midi
- New MIDI API now baked into Windows 10. To take advantage of these features, app developers need to write to new API.
- My Launchpad app demo, showing MIDI running just as well on a Raspberry Pi 2 as it does on full PC
- Allows shared device access (multiple apps using same MIDI device)
- Increased perf and lowered latency in the built-in wavetable synth (same synth for now)
- Improved/Updated device naming. Device can specify name and we use that first, if available.
Audio
- New AudioGraph latency-optimized API rolled into Windows 10
- Redesigned audio stack to provide a minimum of 15ms latency improvement, much more if drivers opt in to small buffers
- Surface Pro 3 round-trip latency example: 50ms in Windows 8.1, 10ms in Windows 10, using WASAPI or AudioGraph.
- We didn't get into the lower-level stuff that we've done, or what we've done with hardware manufacturers. Just not enough time in this session, and not all that relevant to the Build audience. I'll cover this at NAMM this summer. Bala will be with me there.
Concluding thoughts: first step of many for audio and MIDI. We'll be working hard on more features/updates/improvements going forward.

Psychlist1972
WASAPI is going to be goon on the built-in sound chips on laptops/tablets/phones. These DACs are usually limited to 44.1/48k stereo, without any additional channels.
WASAPI is built over WDM. I've never looked at the multiple card question, so I can't provide a definitive answer there. I'm about to hop on a plane to Brazil, so I'll need to defer an answer on that one until I get back.
ASIO is typically going to be better on pro-level external (usb/firewire/pcie/etc.) soundcards. I know it has limitations, but it's the latency leader for the near future at the least. We need to see how the chipset manufacturers do on the on-board device drivers, and then also look to see how WDM drivers for external cards are going. I'm not willing to predict any long-term winner at this point.

Check the phrase highlighted in bold - so in otherwords - no huge latency optimization for DAW's! 
ASIO still rules...
The optimization is in other areas like tablet computing... So this is exciting for Cakewalk in the sense they might be able to finally build Sonar on a tablet/metro app. But then not that much excitement as tablet adoption is all about Apple and Android nowdays (nobody cares much for MS, of course their aim is to improve it, as stated right here).
 
He also points to this link, which Cakewalk might find this interesting...
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2015/3-634
 
 
Cheers..

Anderton
I saw that too and was intrigued. But I assume it means I'll need to re-install everything...yes? What I should do is prepare a new removable drive, and download it to that. OTOH I don't think it's actually downloadable now, but that you reserve a copy.

Windows 10 is supposed to download and install in the background as an upgrade without disturbing any of your current applications from Win 7.1 and 8.1. It might work. Some people did that with Win 8 from 7 with no problems. If you want to clean install it you will probably need to buy a new copy, unless someone comes up with quasi-legal kludges to do that. This one MS really wants to control, and almost certainly it will be irreversible, and may kill your activation code for the prior Windows version used to upgrade it. The free version at least requires that you keep Windows automatic updates running, so likely the only choice you will be given is take it or leave it, and you will not be able to decline available updates unless you have a commercial license. This distribution model as described so far makes no provision for a downloadable iso or other method of upgrading except as part of an internet connected automatic update.
 
What you are doing by "reserving your copy" now, is getting a place in the front of the wait list for the automatic update. There are literally hundreds of millions of machines eligible for this ~3GB download, so it will probably take months to deliver it to everyone who wants it. July 29 is the target date for the first downloads, and also starts the clock running for the 1 year eligibility for a free upgrade.
 
 

Anderton
I saw that too and was intrigued. But I assume it means I'll need to re-install everything...yes? What I should do is prepare a new removable drive, and download it to that. OTOH I don't think it's actually downloadable now, but that you reserve a copy.
 
Also, does anyone know for sure what kind of model Windows 10 is going to use? A subscription model, or something like Cakewalk's Membership model, or...?
 
 

 That's the mystery.  The other is the EULA. So far MS mentioned it's free for as long as you use it for your device. So what upgrades to a system can be done until it's no longer considered the device. So it's like a an OEM license.
  That could keep many desktop users especially those who game to keep their previous OS. W8 OEM is a far friendlier license for upgrades than W7.
 
 

slartabartfast
 
This one MS really wants to control, and almost certainly it will be irreversible, and may kill your activation code for the prior Windows version used to upgrade it. The free version at least requires that you keep Windows automatic updates running, so likely the only choice you will be given is take it or leave it, and you will not be able to decline available updates unless you have a commercial license. This distribution model as described so far makes no provision for a downloadable iso or other method of upgrading except as part of an internet connected automatic update.
 

My DAW computer is off line so Win 10 looks like a no go for me, at least for now.

Wookiee
You can run a check from the little tray app that will check you PC for any possible problems, interestingly it found none on my primary DAW even though it is running legacy Firewire.  Does this mean they have reintegrated legacy Firewire for win 10 after dropping and then reinstating for win 8.x?

 Unfortunately I don't think it detects hardware.  Even the one for W8 doesn't.  I read somewhere that even Vista drivers work.  All of my audio interfaces except for Guitar Port and iTrack Solo stopped driver support after W7.
 So I have 2 AP2496, AP191, FW 410, Terratec EWX2496, Presonus 1394, with no clue if they will work on W10.

Doktor Avalanche
Thanks Kevin... That link was really useful

 
You are very welcome, sir, glad to be of some help. Full disclosure, I worked for MS for fifteen years as a developer in the consulting group, so I'm pretty much an MS fanboy. I left in 2012 to assume a semi-retired status, so my bias taint isn't as strong as an active FTE. You have been warned. :)
 

Doktor Avalanche
Reading through this. I 'm not as excited as I was.... esp about the latency improvements...

 
It remains to be seen how much of the work will help ASIO users, but it almost might well make WASAPI a more attractive choice. I'm not up on what other factors besides latency come into play when choosing a driver model in Sonar, only that there are some. That being said, I avoided WASAPI et al like the plague in the Xn days, but to my surprise I now use it in Platinum, so for me W10 could be the bee's knees.
 

Doktor Avalanche

Psychlist1972
Windows 10 is free for 8.1 and 7 users for first year after release.
We're going to start delivering Windows as a service, with more frequent, smaller updates vs. large version rollouts.

This is the bit that frightens me...   So free meaning free forever or just free for a year? Everytime this is mentioned there seems to be smoke and mirrors.

MS already ships updates weekly via Windows Update (patch Tuesday) so I'm pretty comfortable that they're all up for continuous dev/release. As far as the subscription model and what it might be, it will be interesting to see what happens. One thing to keep in mind is that they are every bit as constrained as Cakewalk in terms of what their user base will tolerated in the way of pricing.

Doktor Avalanche

Psychlist1972 Yes, I'm hearing loud and clear that TB is important. I can't make any promises as to when/how, but the message is being heard in Redmond and it'll be something we bring to the appropriate teams in OSG (Operating Systems Group) at MS.

  Predictable distancing from ASIO (hey kids ASIO is Steinberg, we want it to be Microsoft! but we can't deliver it so let's just say we will improve it later and then all your base are belong to us), so then perhaps a NEW driver model!??

 
Wow. I'm utterly stumped to see how you got here from Pete's comments, although the snark about a new driver model is an echo of a sore point for a lot of vendors, but to my understanding that issue has nothing at all to do with ASIO's stewardship. MS can't improve ASIO, they don't own it, and by what Pete says (he's closely aligned with the audio team at MS) they don't seem to want to own it. ASIO focuses on an incredibly narrow part of the market that MS can't serve as effectively as a company like Steinberg can and they get that. MS needs companies like Steinberg and Cakewalk to make the platform relevant to this market and they damned well know it, and they're sure not stupid enough to demand that all DAWs henceforth use WASAPI/WDM for all their driver needs.
 

Doktor Avalanche
Check the phrase highlighted in bold - so in otherwords - no huge latency optimization for DAW's!

... unless WASAPI works for your scenario, in which case you're golden, otherwise...

Doktor Avalanche
ASIO still rules...

... if it doesn't. That being said, everybody uses MIDI and the changes to the MIDI subsystem looks to be really good, so you'll get some stuff there.
 

Doktor Avalanche
The optimization is in other areas like tablet computing... So this is exciting for Cakewalk in the sense they might be able to finally build Sonar on a tablet/metro app.

This is a pretty parochial view of some truly high-impact work, but I guess that's understandable if you only ever use a DAW and only with ASIO and are never exposed to ATM's, cash registers, DVD rental machines and airport kiosks or have occasion to use robot controlled systems or take computer based training or even watch a movie on your computer. No to mention the impact IoT will have on the music industry.

Doktor Avalanche
But then not that much excitement as tablet adoption is all about Apple and Android nowdays (nobody cares much for MS, of course their aim is to improve it, as stated right here).

 
lol. Doc, it ain't all about the tablet by any stretch, but you should seriously give Sonar on a Surface Pro a whirl. You might be surprised.

Sorry I don't have the faith of some of you. But I can't see another OS in the middle of CW new membership program, releasing new content every month. Now if you have a problem with  Sonar the OS is just another piece to blame. Not until CW says its ok anyway and even then I would probably pass. MS seems more interested in "gamers" and not us. Maybe it'll be great but my experience is every version of windows seem to run more programs in the background and take up more memory. But I admit, I don't know. You guys are the experts really, but this seems to be an unnecessary risk. Peace. :)