• SONAR
  • Too much reverb (p.3)
2015/05/29 09:39:45
charlyg
Lennon used a ton of reverb on his vocals, but still didn't seem as overdone as this.
A children's album? My wife and I like some of those tunes during our "together" time. The old sixties love songs.....
And as far as Yoko, I heard the 2nd side to that Plastic Ono Band album where she is screaming about something or other. That was my first and last exposure to Yoko' singing ability!
2015/05/29 09:47:59
subtlearts
Larry Jones
That original recording of "Be My Baby" is a groundbreaking classic, one of the most iconic and honored pop music tracks ever recorded. It may seem like old hat now, the same way Alfred Hitchcock's weird camera angles do, but that's because it set the stage for so much of what came later, and what we are still hearing today. I'm not a big Phil Spector fan, but everything comes together in that record: orchestra used as rock'n'roll instrument, Hal Blaine's drums tuned to the key of the song, the all-star cast of rhythm players and background singers, the international percussion (maracas, castanets), the Gold Star reverb chamber, and floating above it all Ronnie Bennett's brazen-yet-plaintive voice (in the words of one reviewer, "...her voice radiates pure baby-doll sexuality.). It's just an incredible piece of music. In my opinion.



I was going to say something like that, but Larry said it much better. I totally get the attraction/obsession to the track, it's pretty much pure awesome.
2015/05/29 11:05:25
bitflipper
Larry provided the answer. Ronstadt's version was a homage to the original Phil Specter production, which utilized Gold Star Studio's famous echo chamber. People came from all over the world to use that effect. It's real acoustical reverberation, no plates or springs.
 
Largely because of that great reverb, laying it on thick was a hallmark of Specter's productions. It set off a trend for excessive reverb that lasted several years, until the eventual inevitable backlash, when everybody started making extremely dry recordings. Like the width of neckties, reverb goes in and out of fashion over time. In 1996 it was very much out of fashion, which made the Ronstadt version all the more notable for its time.
 
Is it a bad mix? No, it's perfect. Should you try to replicate it? Probably not, but you never know; you just might kick off the next reverb resurgence.
2015/05/29 11:32:48
vintagevibe
bitflipper
Larry provided the answer. Ronstadt's version was a homage to the original Phil Specter production, which utilized Gold Star Studio's famous echo chamber. People came from all over the world to use that effect. It's real acoustical reverberation, no plates or springs.
 
Largely because of that great reverb, laying it on thick was a hallmark of Specter's productions. It set off a trend for excessive reverb that lasted several years, until the eventual inevitable backlash, when everybody started making extremely dry recordings. Like the width of neckties, reverb goes in and out of fashion over time. In 1996 it was very much out of fashion, which made the Ronstadt version all the more notable for its time.
 
Is it a bad mix? No, it's perfect. Should you try to replicate it? Probably not, but you never know; you just might kick off the next reverb resurgence.




I'm not sure it was a homage.  It has a completely different feel than the original and it sounds like they were making it sound dreamy or like they are in a dream.  It also may have something to do with the time and current reverb trends but they use more reverb than the original.  I agree that it's perfect.
2015/05/29 12:37:50
Beepster
I used to think I hated reverb... all reverb. I was into music at a very young age (like I fell in love with Twisted Sister at 6yo) and it being the 80's everything had that cold sterile ping pongy reverb. When I started actually playing guitar at 12 it was with Peavey transistor amps because they generally had the best onboard distortion in the price range I could con my parents into buying. A Peavey Express 112 was the first "real" amp I owned which had the WORST 80's style reverb EVAR! My buddies owned reverb pedal effects... again HORRIBLE! All the pop music we got blasted with up until the early 90's had that terribly thin, tinny sounding reverb gloss to it... well you get the point. I thought that's what reverb was until I started really getting into recording and messing with all the verb plugs/sims.
 
Now I certainly don't LOVE reverb as an "effect" but certainly realize how crucial it is for depth and space. I still want my instruments right up front and in your face but totally dry is completely obnoxious a hacky sounding.
 
I JUST finished testing out and learning how to use EVERY SINGLE EFFECT and component in Guitar Rig 5. Previously due to my sheer reluctance to use reverb at all once I started realizing how much I needed it I was forced to kind of load presets and Wet/Dry those because I had no idea how to dial things in. Not ideal. After going through the reverbs in GR5 I've got a much better idea of the different types of reverbs and what various controls will do. I think doing that in the context of an instrument I am so comfortable with (guitar) with virtual effects units designed for that instrument helped a lot and now I'm pretty sure I could use something like the Sonitus Reverb or Breverb to get whatever type of sound I want from scratch.
 
But what REALLY stood out to me in those GR5 reverbs was the difference between some of the more classic style reverbs like plate and spring stuff and things designed to emulate that horrific 80's verb. The one in specific from that suite is the Iceverb unit. When set to extreme settings it can do some interesting stuff but it seems to completely embody that nasty, super sterile type reverb that I've hated for so long.
 
Essentially I completely fuxxored myself by thinking THAT sound is what reverb was, and to a certain extent delay as well. Now that I'm catching up with all this I realize they're actually the tools I need to use to make things sound nice and full, realistic and live.
 
Stupid 80's. So much cool buried in so much crap. lol
2015/05/29 12:50:20
lfm
Beepster
 
Stupid 80's. So much cool buried in so much crap. lol


Yes, those gated snares made me freak out.
When Lenny Kravitz came in the 90's or so, with that dry Beatles Abbey Road kind of sound - it was so liberating.
2015/05/29 12:57:52
Beepster
lfm
Beepster
 
Stupid 80's. So much cool buried in so much crap. lol


Yes, those gated snares made me freak out.
When Lenny Kravitz came in the 90's or so, with that dry Beatles Abbey Road kind of sound - it was so liberating.




His first album was certainly brilliant, refreshing and warm. Not sure what the heck started going on after that but Cab Driver and the like sounded great in a lo fi way. Another band I think that really brought things back down to earth from a production perspective without falling into the "grunge" category were the Black Crowes. Perhaps a LITTLE too crisp and over produced but I think they nudged things back in the right direction. Certainly not the full on analog sound of Kravitz but the focus was more on nice full repro of the performances. Not squeezing the life out of them for gawd knows what reason.
2015/05/29 14:04:18
Larry Jones
charlyg
Lennon used a ton of reverb on his vocals, but still didn't seem as overdone as this.

I don't mean to talk down to you, but you have said you're just getting started, so for the record, in the post-Beatle years most of what we heard on John Lennon's voice was delay, not reverb. In other words, discreet repeats of the original signal, as opposed to a wash of reflections. It was used a lot on early rock and rockabilly records, usually created by feeding some of the vocal signal into a tape recorder, then taking that recorded sound right off the playback head and adding it back to the mix. Sometimes they called it "slapback," eventually shortened to "slap." Listen to Elvis, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins or Gene Vincent. These were John's early vocal heroes. Or just shout out over the Grand Canyon for a real world example.
2015/05/29 14:21:31
lfm
Larry Jones
...so for the record, in the post-Beatle years most of what we heard on John Lennon's voice was delay, not reverb. In other words, discreet repeats of the original signal, as opposed to a wash of reflections. It was used a lot on early rock and rockabilly records, usually created by feeding some of the vocal signal into a tape recorder, then taking that recorded sound right off the playback head and adding it back to the mix. Sometimes they called it "slapback," eventually shortened to "slap." Listen to Elvis, Jerry Lee, Carl Perkins or Gene Vincent. These were John's early vocal heroes. Or just shout out over the Grand Canyon for a real world example.




But early Lennon was produced by Phil Spector wasn't he - and taking, in my view, too much of his sound into Lennon's recordings.
 
It was some album not long before his death - that he sounded more modern. Don't remember producer he worked with or all by himself.
2015/05/29 14:34:09
Larry Jones
lfm
But early Lennon was produced by Phil Spector wasn't he - and taking, in my view, too much of his sound into Lennon's recordings.
 
It was some album not long before his death - that he sounded more modern. Don't remember producer he worked with or all by himself.


Double Fantasy (last album) still has a lot of slap on the voice (sorry - John's voice. I haven't listened to Yoko) although it's used less an an obvious "effect" and more as a subtle enhancement. I don't mean to say every word he ever sang was slathered in tape or digital delay, just that it was a characteristic sound that John liked and used a lot, across multiple recordings with different producers.


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