• SONAR
  • What's the best way to humanize MIDI nowadays? (p.4)
2015/05/25 17:15:05
konradh
Nothing wrong with using more than one host/DAW, but I don't concede that is necessary.  I do everything in Sonar.
2015/05/25 17:18:51
williamcopper
Two more ideas:   the tempo window in sonar is pretty useful, so to make a moment lag a bit, just draw the tempo slower; also, while the "note-on" might be quantized exactly to a rigid beat, by using the expression and/or modwheel controllers to change the attack, you easily can make a sense of humanization.     Still a lot of work, granted, but things like randomization are just what someone said above, like a BAD human player.   
 
One of the big things missing in Sonar, that would really help in this kind of thing, is a tool to change all tempo events by a percentage or by a fixed amount.
2015/05/25 17:29:29
g_randybrown
williamcopper
Two more ideas:   the tempo window in sonar is pretty useful, so to make a moment lag a bit, just draw the tempo slower; also, while the "note-on" might be quantized exactly to a rigid beat, by using the expression and/or modwheel controllers to change the attack, you easily can make a sense of humanization.     Still a lot of work, granted, but things like randomization are just what someone said above, like a BAD human player.   
 
One of the big things missing in Sonar, that would really help in this kind of thing, is a tool to change all tempo events by a percentage or by a fixed amount.


As I mentioned above, I draw tempos in a lot as well as controllers.
Also, you may already know this but it is a proven fact that randomization (within a few milliseconds) is something that occurs with the best of players.
I totally agree that it does indeed sound bad if it is more than a few milliseconds though.
Thanks,
Randy
 
 
2015/05/25 17:31:48
stratman70
g_randybrown
I remember there was a CAL script ages ago but I wasn't impressed so much back then and have been painstakingly doing it by hand since.
Just wondering if the script has improved since then or if I need to go with something like this (or something else maybe)?
http://www.midi-plugins.de/mplug/mplug-hum.html
Thanks very much,
Randy




I have had the program for many, many years. It works fine. many options for randomizing you will not find anywhere else.
 
I do agree about the "human input" but this program does do the best job IMHO. Does a lot more also. overlapping notes, due to duration, etc. quick and easy and a very inexpensive program.
 
I use it in Platinum  no problems ever with this app. Easily had it over 10 years
2015/05/25 17:44:36
g_randybrown
Thanks Stratman, I may go with that but I've since PMed Resonant Serpant regarding the DAW he mentioned.
Turns out I've had the "Artist" version for years but never even bothered to install it (came with some hardware I bought).
I just installed it and it did a great job of what I want but it also messes with the velocities so I'm hoping there's a way to get it to ignore that part.
If it won't though I'll just buy that plug-in...certainly a reasonable price. 
Thanks again everyone,
Randy
2015/05/25 18:08:37
mettelus
S1 v3 was just released on the 19th with a fully functional 30-day demo already available. For the first time I am genuinely evaluating another DAW for things I cannot achieve within SONAR. Granted, I typically take something "far beyond" its intended functionality, but a "simple" thing that causes SONAR seppuku functions there (a very sad revelation for me, but I have a lot of songs to finish). I also did not realize how much rendering MIDI as audio really bothers me until I saw the "other side of the fence." Many innate "workflow" feature requests are being adopted by others while we languish.
2015/05/25 18:41:56
King Conga
OK! I'll admit I didn't read every post on this thread, so if I'm repeating someone else's thinking, I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden...OOPS!
 
Anyhoo, after 25 yrs of grappling with that very issue, what I've discovered as a drummer, who is the first one to be yelled at when the tempo is off (and the last to get the limelight) is that what makes MIDI sound like...well...MIDI is NOT the quantization, or timing in general.  What makes it sound mechanical is the lack of velocity sensitivity.  I even put a post on here, and Harmony Central about it years ago asking why couldn't the same council of muckety mucks that put the GM protocol together reassemble and figure out a way to put maybe 1024 increments of velocity, instead of the 128 we have now.  My thinking was all they would have to do is divide that 128 (an even #) into the 1024. Both common #'s we all see in PC technology.  I did get a good, knowledgeable reply from a much brainier person than I that made sense why that couldn't really happen, but I can't remember what it was.
 
I also had it proven to me in a much more practical way in a live performance.  I went to see this band that was really a great band. In fact, when I walked in the room before I could even see the band, I was initially amazed at how clean the mix was, and even the volume was such that you could even speak to others without going horse.  When I saw the band the first thing I noticed was that the drummer was playing ALL pads, INCL the snare and cymbals.  He was a good drummer too.  He kept the tempo just fine. However, after about 30 mins I felt like I was going to break out in hives, and I couldn't figure out why.  I spent the next 30 mins trying to figure out what was making me feel this way.  Finally, it dawned on me.  The drum samples the drummer was using were too static, and made him sound like a drum machine with all the finesse of a Yamaha RX7; which had no velocity sensitivity. 
 
If you're not a drummer you may not realize this, but I've tried a test several times throughout the years as MIDI, and quality sampling has evolved.  If you play a real drum with simple 1/4 notes (L R L R) you'll notice there's always SOME kind of difference, no matter how hard you try to make each stroke identical to the other.  When you use MIDI to do the same thing you won't hear that difference.  Further, I know EXACTLY how to quantize a theoretical buzz roll with MIDI, but again, no matter what I do it always comes out sounding like an Uzi.  Also, the only problem that is solved by getting a human to play a drum part is that they won't play more than 2 voices (other than the kick) at the same time with their hands, and their fills seem to make a little more sense.  But that's to the very trained ear.  I've owned an electronic kit before, and while it's very handy in a MIDI studio for those very reasons, it SUX to use one live, unless you're a sorry drummer that doesn't know how to tune, or mic your drums.
 
So, what I would concentrate on (at least as far as humanizing drums) is quantize EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING on your drum track to absolute ZERO.  Then find REALLY good samples that sound like they have a lot of multisampling going on.  THEN, bring in actual humans to play the other instruments, and THAT will give you the humanization you're looking for.  I PROMISE!  
 
For what it's worth, SampleTank uses some very well-sampled drums.  Go listen to some really good session drummers like Steve Gadd, or the late great Jeff Porcaro. Listen to all of the subtlety they use especially on the snare.  The other drums you can get away with not so good samples. Another example is how Alesis drum samples usually are KILLER sounds just by themselves, but using them in a fast roll they suck.  So, if you keep that in mind you can use a lot of their samples, except for snare. You might ask a really good drummer to come over and and hear the samples you've got.  Just listen to snare samples.  If they sound exactly the same when you're tapping on the keyboard very softly as they do when you strike the note as hard as you can, that's NOT a good sample.
2015/05/25 19:28:57
Resonant Serpent
stratman70
g_randybrown
I remember there was a CAL script ages ago but I wasn't impressed so much back then and have been painstakingly doing it by hand since.
Just wondering if the script has improved since then or if I need to go with something like this (or something else maybe)?
http://www.midi-plugins.de/mplug/mplug-hum.html
Thanks very much,
Randy




I have had the program for many, many years. It works fine. many options for randomizing you will not find anywhere else.
 
I do agree about the "human input" but this program does do the best job IMHO. Does a lot more also. overlapping notes, due to duration, etc. quick and easy and a very inexpensive program.
 
I use it in Platinum  no problems ever with this app. Easily had it over 10 years




Awesome news. I didn't know this existed. I'll give it a spin, and it might save me some time. Thanks.
2015/05/25 19:37:35
g_randybrown
Resonant Serpent
stratman70
g_randybrown
I remember there was a CAL script ages ago but I wasn't impressed so much back then and have been painstakingly doing it by hand since.
Just wondering if the script has improved since then or if I need to go with something like this (or something else maybe)?
http://www.midi-plugins.de/mplug/mplug-hum.html
Thanks very much,
Randy




I have had the program for many, many years. It works fine. many options for randomizing you will not find anywhere else.
 
I do agree about the "human input" but this program does do the best job IMHO. Does a lot more also. overlapping notes, due to duration, etc. quick and easy and a very inexpensive program.
 
I use it in Platinum  no problems ever with this app. Easily had it over 10 years




Awesome news. I didn't know this existed. I'll give it a spin, and it might save me some time. Thanks.


Please PM me regarding your review sir.
Thanks again everyone,
Randy
2015/05/25 19:42:51
Resonant Serpent
Will do.
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