Only a few days ago a host completely missed something and I pointed it out. Their response were to edit their post to take account of my correction (to save face?) and delete my post. I wasn't particularly annoyed more bemused..
 
On the whole hosts do a good job, but I have to admit I've seen multiple instances of not following forum handbook rules,(rather attempt to bend them). I've also been sent PM's telling me not to do something but refusing to supply any URL reference pointing to where I went wrong (very Judge Dredd). I also don't like the fact they seem to think they are moderators of the forums discussion forums when they are not.
 
Still I'd rather have them than not. But less of this sort of thing please.

vintagevibe

Anderton
The market has changed but fortunately for those who like notation, there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. It doesn't require the same kind of maintenance as digital audio, which has seen multiple changes in formats, drivers, and workflow over the years. 

Not a completely accurate picture.  Avid didn't buy Sibelius in the old days when digital audio was new.

 
No, but they've been doing notation since those days. Incorporating a basic version of Sibelius was done to encourage upsells to the full version, and satisfy those who had complained about the pre-Sibelius notation.
 

Presonus invested significantly to acquire Notion very recently. Cubase had a major upgrade on the Score view functioning last year. Reaper is working on a notation solution currently.  All these companies are investing in notation now or recently. Notation is not just a legacy feature.

I never said notation was a "legacy feature." I said there are programs with a legacy of including notation early on and continuing it. Big difference.
 
And of the companies you mentioned, three of them added notation functionality by purchasing or working with third party companies, not messing with the internal code internally, so it didn't take a big hit on their development teams. PreSonus and Avid are much bigger companies than Cakewalk, and have the option of writing a check (which from what I understand wasn't all that huge) to add functionality (although Cakewalk is part of Gibson, it operates semi-autonomously and is responsible for its P&L).
 
Those companies can analyze the potential ROI and say "hey, it won't cost that much, and won't interfere with development of the core product. Why not?" And as I've said before, Steinberg is owned by Yamaha, which has major hooks into education world-wide. It is a core emphasis so it's not surprising they would update notation which was not always universally loved.
 
But my larger point remains the same - more power to them, it's of value to at least some part of their existing user base, and they need a unique selling point in a world where DAWs are increasingly similar. Cakewalk chose the membership program and "rapid response" as its USP, and is doing very well as a result so I think that was a good choice of where to put their resources.
 
Regardless, I remain highly skeptical that the presence of notation moves the needle much in terms of market share. For Cakewalk to move that needle, I believe the company would need to create a notation solution that was mind-blowingly better than anything else out there, and be available on the Mac, to cause enough users to switch from their existing software of choice to cover the development costs.
 
It seems a much more practical path would be to fix the bugs in the current implementation so that it's properly functional, and leave it at that.
 

dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag just because everyone isn't hopping on your crusade.

 
Wow.  
 

dubdisciple
 The fact that cakewalk staff has indulged in countless threads like this, enduring insults and baseless insinuations, proves they are not ignoring you. You just can't seem to understand that they can hear you perfectly clear and sinultaneously remain unconvinced to act.

I'm pretty good at english and can I assure that it is possible to choose to ignore something.  You are lost in a semantic hole of your own making.

This thread is a perfect illustration of the shift in the forums. At some point everything became confrontational. It's become about protecting your opinion by making the opinions of others seem to be inferior. IF you have an idea don't bring it forward unless you are prepared to defend it because it will be challenged. I simply want to have a discussion and exchange ideas. I don't come here to do battle, this is supposed to be my relaxation.
 
We don't all have access to the information that say Craig Anderton has. With that in mind, I have to believe what he posts and his opinions have a far greater weight than the rank and file. I don't care what he claims, when Craig posts I consider him to be the voice of Cakewalk. No point in debating with him because he's actively involved in the development of the program. He is in a position of authority and I respect his views.
 
There are others however, those that will just slam your opinion, those that will decide that your opinion is flawed and not worth the time you took to express it. That's where the shift has been. It's so hard to quantify, but I feel there is a mean streak here that wasn't here before and it causes me anxiety to participate. I used to look forward to seeing if anyone responded to my post. Now I get anxious and wonder how much criticism I'll have to face.

Doktor Avalanche
Only a few days ago a host completely missed something and I pointed it out. Their response were to edit their post to take account of my correction (to save face?) and delete my post. I wasn't particularly annoyed more bemused..

I don't know the precise context, but if someone points out something like a typo in my post or a bad link, I'll fix the problem and delete the post calling attention to the problem. I think it makes for a better reading experience not to have more posts than is necessary. However I do tick the box that sends a message to the person saying it had been deleted, and I usually stuff it in the recycle bin as a matter of courtesy, just in case.

ampfixer
This thread is a perfect illustration of the shift in the forums. At some point everything became confrontational. It's become about protecting your opinion by making the opinions of others seem to be inferior. IF you have an idea don't bring it forward unless you are prepared to defend it because it will be challenged. I simply want to have a discussion and exchange ideas. I don't come here to do battle, this is supposed to be my relaxation.
 
We don't all have access to the information that say Craig Anderton has. With that in mind, I have to believe what he posts and his opinions have a far greater weight than the rank and file. I don't care what he claims, when Craig posts I consider him to be the voice of Cakewalk. No point in debating with him because he's actively involved in the development of the program. He is in a position of authority and I respect his views.
 
There are others however, those that will just slam your opinion, those that will decide that your opinion is flawed and not worth the time you took to express it. That's where the shift has been. It's so hard to quantify, but I feel there is a mean streak here that wasn't here before and it causes me anxiety to participate. I used to look forward to seeing if anyone responded to my post. Now I get anxious and wonder how much criticism I'll have to face.

Let me know when you think this is happening. That is when things seem to be getting confrontational. I will say I see nothing wrong in attacking an idea. I think that is something any idea needs to become a good one.  Attacking a member is not tolerated. But I will do what I can to keep things civil. That really is all we can do. BTW whether a host or not we all have a duty to act when a thread turns bad. No one should attack another but pointing out poorly framed posts that will cause problems isn't an attack. If we try hard to respect one another things will work themselves out. 
 
This thread has been very good in not doing the later. It has diverged a lot and I have commented on that aspect. But in the end no one has been prevented from expressing their opinion.   

Doktor Avalanche
Only a few days ago a host completely missed something and I pointed it out. Their response were to edit their post to take account of my correction (to save face?) and delete my post. I wasn't particularly annoyed more bemused..

Anderton
I don't know the precise context, but if someone points out something like a typo in my post or a bad link, I'll fix the problem and delete the post calling attention to the problem. I think it makes for a better reading experience not to have more posts than is necessary. However I do tick the box that sends a message to the person saying it had been deleted, and I usually stuff it in the recycle bin as a matter of courtesy, just in case.

I'm afraid it was a bit more than just a typo Craig... I would talk about the specifics but I see nothing productive in pointing fingers at a specific individual (besides I'm tired of bun fights). Hopefully they are reading this thread though and decide not to take such actions in future, they should note if it happens again I will complain strongly and vocally! They know who  they are...
 

ampfixer
We don't all have access to the information that say Craig Anderton has. With that in mind, I have to believe what he posts and his opinions have a far greater weight than the rank and file. I don't care what he claims, when Craig posts I consider him to be the voice of Cakewalk. No point in debating with him because he's actively involved in the development of the program. He is in a position of authority and I respect his views.

 
I advocate for the consumers to Cakewalk, and for Cakewalk to the consumers. The second part is more obvious in this forum, the first part is more obvious in the program. FWIW I have disagreements with Cakewalk as well. That's one of my values to the company.
 
I do try to educate as much as possible in my posts. Many people here simply are not familiar with the realities of the music software business, which is fine...they should be enjoying the programs, and making music with them. However, when they don't understand why certain things don't go their way (particularly if they're petty or condescending about it) and in my opinion it's due to not understanding how the business works, I try to explain that business.
 
I do feel some people here hold others to much higher standards than the standards to which they hold themselves. That's to be expected, I guess, but does not encourage quality dialog.
 
For example in another thread, someone criticized marketing for not placing reading forum posts as a priority, and asked what they could possibly be doing that's more important. Well, they were preparing a presentation to the business development managers at Gibson, dealing with X3 RMAs, localization issues with Japanese software, preparing banner ads, writing the copy and web pages for the next release, and a whole lot more that I won't bore you with. Sometimes I'll send them URLs to threads I think they should know about because I know they don't have time to spend time in these forums. I get calls from Noel on Sundays and from Andrew at 8 AM and 11 PM. This is a 24/7 operation. I'm surprised Andrew pays as much attention as he does. It's a measure of his dedication, yet some people begrudge him for not spending even more time instead of appreciating the time he does spend. Very few other companies have their executives and CTOs participating in forums.
 
Unfortunately a lot of what I know is confidential information not just from Cakewalk but from other companies and industry sources, so I often can't provide additional details to underscore why I hold the opinions I do. I am friends with pretty much all the companies in this industry. It is a tough, competitive, low-margin world, and we're all in this together. All the people I know in these companies are motivated by a love of music and a desire to provide cool tools. I just wish that some of them were rewarded with more than selling 12 copies of a product in a month and seeing cracks on multiple torrents...
 
There really aren't any "enemies" in this industry. All these companies carry on dialogs with each other about topics like compatibility and operating system weirdnesses. They work with each other to try and insure a positive customer experience. I honestly believe that the industry as a whole, not just Cakewalk, is woefully underappreciated my many users who have this sense of entitlement regarding features they want to see. If they knew the realities of this world, they would be grateful for the dazzling array of choices in front of us from a variety of companies, instead of complaining endlessly that a program doesn't satisfy all their needs.
 
I wish those in these forums would reflect the same attitudes that provide the camaraderie amongst software developers. I have a feeling though that given human nature, the odds of a notation solution appearing before that are more likely.
 

I feel there is a mean streak here that wasn't here before and it causes me anxiety to participate. I used to look forward to seeing if anyone responded to my post. Now I get anxious and wonder how much criticism I'll have to face.

I've had 20 years of experience in forums and IMHO, I believe they are nothing more or less than a mirror of society. It takes effort to counteract the influences of a society that is becoming coarser, and instead act with courtesy and respect within a forum context. Sadly, some people do not make that effort.

John
 Attacking a member is not tolerated. 

dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag 

 
This was tolerated.

pbognar
I hope we can continue to have rational, constructive discussions about this.  It is not my intent to be an irritant.

 
Suffice it to say you have a good handle on the situation and I do not see you as an irritant. Your posts generally register high on the "constructive" meter.