vintagevibe

John
 Attacking a member is not tolerated. 

dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag 

 
This was tolerated.

OK you have pointed out an infringement. Now you want me to do something, right? 
 
You are right though.  
 
Dubdisciple please don't do that anymore. Lets try to find better ways to express a thought. Because I respect you both and like you both I know you and Vintagevibe will keep it civil. You are both better than that. 
 
Peace to you both!

Well, that deteriorated quickly.
I think the reason is everyone is busy complaining about Rapture Pro. Once that's fixed, they'll be back.

Anderton
 
I've had 20 years of experience in forums and IMHO, I believe they are nothing more or less than a mirror of society. It takes effort to counteract the influences of a society that is becoming coarser, and instead act with courtesy and respect within a forum context. Sadly, some people do not make that effort.

This may be the core issue Craig. I never thought about it that way but you may be right on point. I could be operating on the false assumption that people have a common, shared idea, of what good manners and courtesy are. We're all under a lot more pressure today than we were a year ago, and a year before that. I've had a lot of experience with organizational structure and team building. Much of that was learning how to listen to others and try to see through their eyes. Much of that stuff goes out the window with text communication. I can read body language and listen to vocal inflections when words fall short. Trying to gain the same understanding via text is very tricky.

ampfixer
I've had a lot of experience with organizational structure and team building. Much of that was learning how to listen to others and try to see through their eyes. Much of that stuff goes out the window with text communication. I can read body language and listen to vocal inflections when words fall short. Trying to gain the same understanding via text is very tricky.

"Very tricky" is putting it mildly. For example I do not know whether I am not explaining things sufficiently clearly to VintageVibe so therefore he misinterprets what I say, or he cannot understand what I am saying because it is out of his frame of reference,or he is being deliberately evasive and disingenuous, or he is simply pressed for time because dinner will burn if he spends too much time reading my posts...or something else entirely. 
 
My assumption is that he simply does not live day-to-day with the realities of the music software business, so his analyses are based on a lack of quality data. Without quality data I do not think it is possible to draw quality conclusions. I have tried to address his concerns on that level. But who knows whether that is the correct level or not? Obviously I am not getting through with my analysis based on the data I receive, so his opinions on the importance of notation in music software to the general population will almost certainly remain unchanged as they reflect his personal viewpoint. Which is fine; it's natural that he would concern himself with his personal needs, not the financial health of an entire company.
 
My opinions will also remain unchanged, unless/until I see data that indicates those opinions are no longer valid. In that case, I can change my opinion within seconds. I have no agenda pro or con notation. I have an agenda for Cakewalk to succeed so that it will have more resources. Then the company will have more possibilities to implement projects and ideas that, at least for the moment, are not feasible.
 
Major, positive steps have been taken since the company was acquired. Cakewalk has shown an ability to prioritize what needs to be done in a way that produces forward motion. One of those priorities is an emphasis on addressing long-standing bugs and promoting stability based on how many users they impact.

I don't know how many people, if any, I represent, but here's my position:
 
1.  If staff view disappeared, I would have to change software because staff is how I compose.  I would be like an author who didn't have the alphabet any more.
2.  That said, if staff and notation never got any better than today, I wouldn't really care that much.  I don't need cross-staff beaming or complex page lay-out options to compose music in my DAW.
 
So, although I am one of the biggest users of staff, I am struggling to understand all this emotion.  If Cakewalk starts to take it away, then I will be emotional.

I bought Notion for the price of a cheap plug in. I don't use it. I bought it because I wanted to be able to do everything on one machine and I have friends that occasionally drop by to score some strings. I can't even tell you if it's a good program but my friends like it a lot and I don't care if Cake never works on scoring. 
 
I don't know what rewire is but I can access Notion via rewire. I imagine that means I can use it from within Sonar. If Cake put $100k into staff view and scoring would it be any better than the program I bought for $49.95 on sale? The upgrade would cost $200. It seems like an invitation to purchase the solution elsewhere, yet people are resisting.

As a noob I can say two things....
 
1. after just a few weeks, I can already spot the good guys.
2. I hope to be remembered as one of those.
 
On a side note, my laptop blew(internal power supply so hd was intact), and I am back up and running on a desktop, so I'll have a bigger monitor for console and instruments.....fwiw

John

vintagevibe

John
 Attacking a member is not tolerated. 

dubdisciple
You don't have to act like a smarmy d-bag 

 
This was tolerated.

OK you have pointed out an infringement. Now you want me to do something, right? 
 
You are right though.  
 
Dubdisciple please don't do that anymore. Lets try to find better ways to express a thought. Because I respect you both and like you both I know you and Vintagevibe will keep it civil. You are both better than that. 
 
Peace to you both!

Duly noted

Hi-
 
I think the level of helpfulness here is about the same as always (i.e., very high)! I think the "personality" of the SONAR forum has changed somewhat, though. I wasn't around when the forum hosts were first added and some of the subforums created. I'm not crazy about the tone/content of some of the forum hosts' posts, esp. when they say they like or respect certain members or particularly value their input, yada-yada, or argue ad infinitum a single point to make sure they're seen as "right."  It shouldn't matter whether a host "likes" or "respects" a forum member when they're applying the rules, IMO.
 
Maybe they're in an untenable position as members *and* hosts, but it seems to me they should try to be objective and leave out the subjective stuff, if possible.
 
-Susan

EDIT: I apologize to all for talking about notation in this thread, but my comment is peripherally related to the original poster's question.

Anderton
One notation advocate in this forum (sorry, I forget who) wanted to make a constructive comment that would actually help the Bakers, so he put together a list of the 5 bugs which, if fixed, would make people who use notation with Sonar a whole lot happier. I passed that along to the product manager with a recommendation to implement.

This was the point where I gave up reading the "No Notation Fixes!" thread. It was a sensible, well-considered post. The five points looked to me (not a notation guy) as if they would provide partial notation satisfaction to the majority of those who really wanted improvements, while remaining limited enough to be achievable from a programming standpoint. But the thread rolls on, still with no one happy. The five points were torn apart, added to, and ignored in hundreds of more comments.
 
My takeaway was that there is no consensus within the group demanding notation fixes, even on something like the definition of notation fixes, and not much willingness to "settle" for some initial steps in the right direction, which could lead to a more robust staff view. Add to that the commenters who predict that nothing will ever happen based on what they perceive as 20 years of stonewalling by Cakewalk, and it just looks like a roiling cauldron of bitterness and anger, sort of a support group for people to share the ways in which they already know they are not going to get what they want.
 
I'm sure there are thoughtful users who could use a better staff view, and I hope they get it, one way or another. But I respectfully suggest they all use their time making music whatever way they can, and send constructive criticism and requests directly to Cakewalk through the channel that is set up for that.
 
Meantime, if that thread got locked it would be OK with me