• SONAR
  • Microsoft copies Cakewalk Sonar (p.6)
2015/05/09 12:28:05
Doktor Avalanche
@sharke Operating systems are converging because more and more CPU, storage and memory is cheap and performs well. Check what Microsoft are doing with their mobile platforms for instance and what they did with Windows 8.

The day where you have a specific OS for a task or particular hardware is almost over give it another 5 years, the only tough nut to crack now is battery life and charge times ... and there's already technology out there which isn't in the mainstream yet.
2015/05/09 12:38:08
Beepster
Really the way to look at the Linux paradigm from a purely "make it work" viewpoint is this...
 
Think of a photocopier or a self contained Casio keyboard or whatever. It has it's own little code written onto chips (or even little hardrives) and all they do is make the device work. It is programmed to do exactly what it needs to do... no more, no less. It does not get interrupted by other conflicting instructions. None of its resources get hogged by other tasks. It just works.
 
With dedicated distros those instructions are on your terminal (your computer) and send the data where it needs to go to make things happen. If you don't add any extra gack to the process then the terminal just focuses on those tasks and all the hardware involved does not get distracted.
 
With Windows or OSx or even Linux distros like Ubuntu that are intended to "do it all" and mimic those other OS's it has a million and one things going on. It is always ready and waiting to handle whatever you throw at it. Which is great for multitasking.
 
But it also takes a lot more resources, causes a lot more potential conflicts and interruptions and is just generally unnecessary if all you want to do is ONE specific task.
 
We don't install a full consumer version of Windows on a photocopier because that would be silly.
 
Servers are kind of the same way. You need more than a simple photocopier needs but far less than a system that someone is going to do "whatever" on... but you also need more in the way of data management/storage and intrusion protection. You want your terminal's resources to go to those tasks instead of all the crap a modern consumer PC does. You aren't going to be watching videos on it. You aren't going to doing a bunch of spreadsheets or editing or whatever. You just want it to retrieve and serve up data and thwart incoming threats.
 
Similarly... with audio what are we doing? It's far more complex than a web server and certainly far more complex than a photcopier BUT we see it day in and day out here on the forum. Windows settings meant for generalized usage are interrupting data flow. Background programs are interrupting data flow. Bad programs/drivers conflicting with the OS are interrupting data flow. Yadda yadda.
 
I showed up here over three years ago and gatdamned if it isn't a massive annoyance trying to keep track of all this crap you have to do to make sure all this OTHER stuff that is really just designed to give a more generalized audience a GENERAL release that will serve MOST people's needs isn't interfering with our very specific needs as music producers.
 
In a perfect world we could get Microsoft to release a version that caters to us and is completely optimized for audio but no way in bleeping poop is that going to happen. They won't let us crack it legally... so what do we do?
 
Well, we rely on guys like Mr. Roseberry to build and tweak our systems and that is brilliant BUT having streamlined OSs that simply remove all that extra crap would be great. Then Jim could focus on testing hardware... lol.
 
This was I think part of the whole reason PT was the market leader for so long. Their dedicated boxes handle all that nuisance and took much of the OS out of the equation. Same for video. You just couldn't rely on the core system and OS to deal with that crap and you paid through the nose for the luxury of being able to avoid it. Now our systems are able to deal with it but our OSs are so convoluted and scattered we have to crap our pants trying to worry about all the fiddle faddle.
 
I mean it's not as bad as all that and if a moron like me can make things work we truly are in a golden age but really if the code was there to just make sure all the data was going where it needed to, the common platforms (like VST) were available, driver support for the main manufacturers were in place we could be running MUCH more on MUCH less.
 
Dare to dream... eh?
 
Sorry for the pontifimication and excessive elaboramations... weird mood today I guess but damned would it be cool to just put all that crap behind us.
 
Audio terminals, baby!!!
2015/05/09 12:44:03
Doktor Avalanche
And with Linux you simply plug in the functionality to make it work. It is modular. All distributions do is make it simpler for the end user to do it as a beginner base. If you want to strip out all the crap you don't need you can do it quickly and easily. Even if there is software laying around on your hard drives you don't use, it generally lies dormant and does nothing unlike windows.
 
Windows however you need get buy into a specific OS for the job. You then spend half your life trying to turn a circle into a square.
2015/05/09 12:45:18
BobF
Back to Win10 for 7 & 8 users ... did I dream this, or is there some fine print somewhere that says the 10 box will be req'd to take auto updates?
 
 
2015/05/09 12:48:39
John
Beepster
Really the way to look at the Linux paradigm from a purely "make it work" viewpoint is this...
 
Think of a photocopier or a self contained Casio keyboard or whatever. It has it's own little code written onto chips (or even little hardrives) and all they do is make the device work. It is programmed to do exactly what it needs to do... no more, no less. It does not get interrupted by other conflicting instructions. None of its resources get hogged by other tasks. It just works.
 
With dedicated distros those instructions are on your terminal (your computer) and send the data where it needs to go to make things happen. If you don't add any extra gack to the process then the terminal just focuses on those tasks and all the hardware involved does not get distracted.
 
With Windows or OSx or even Linux distros like Ubuntu that are intended to "do it all" and mimic those other OS's it has a million and one things going on. It is always ready and waiting to handle whatever you throw at it. Which is great for multitasking.
 
But it also takes a lot more resources, causes a lot more potential conflicts and interruptions and is just generally unnecessary if all you want to do is ONE specific task.
 
We don't install a full consumer version of Windows on a photocopier because that would be silly.
 
Servers are kind of the same way. You need more than a simple photocopier needs but far less than a system that someone is going to do "whatever" on... but you also need more in the way of data management/storage and intrusion protection. You want your terminal's resources to go to those tasks instead of all the crap a modern consumer PC does. You aren't going to be watching videos on it. You aren't going to doing a bunch of spreadsheets or editing or whatever. You just want it to retrieve and serve up data and thwart incoming threats.
 
Similarly... with audio what are we doing? It's far more complex than a web server and certainly far more complex than a photcopier BUT we see it day in and day out here on the forum. Windows settings meant for generalized usage are interrupting data flow. Background programs are interrupting data flow. Bad programs/drivers conflicting with the OS are interrupting data flow. Yadda yadda.
 
I showed up here over three years ago and gatdamned if it isn't a massive annoyance trying to keep track of all this crap you have to do to make sure all this OTHER stuff that is really just designed to give a more generalized audience a GENERAL release that will serve MOST people's needs isn't interfering with our very specific needs as music producers.
 
In a perfect world we could get Microsoft to release a version that caters to us and is completely optimized for audio but no way in bleeping poop is that going to happen. They won't let us crack it legally... so what do we do?
 
Well, we rely on guys like Mr. Roseberry to build and tweak our systems and that is brilliant BUT having streamlined OSs that simply remove all that extra crap would be great. Then Jim could focus on testing hardware... lol.
 
This was I think part of the whole reason PT was the market leader for so long. Their dedicated boxes handle all that nuisance and took much of the OS out of the equation. Same for video. You just couldn't rely on the core system and OS to deal with that crap and you paid through the nose for the luxury of being able to avoid it. Now our systems are able to deal with it but our OSs are so convoluted and scattered we have to crap our pants trying to worry about all the fiddle faddle.
 
I mean it's not as bad as all that and if a moron like me can make things work we truly are in a golden age but really if the code was there to just make sure all the data was going where it needed to, the common platforms (like VST) were available, driver support for the main manufacturers were in place we could be running MUCH more on MUCH less.
 
Dare to dream... eh?
 
Sorry for the pontifimication and excessive elaboramations... weird mood today I guess but damned would it be cool to just put all that crap behind us.
 
Audio terminals, baby!!!


Nicely put Beep. I ask myself why I admire Beep so much this post tells why very nicely.  
2015/05/09 12:48:46
Beepster
Anderton
sharke
The thing is, there are just as many (if not more) Windows users who are endlessly curious and inventive too. There's a huge amount of free open source software available for Windows. I don't know exactly what % of the market Windows has worldwide but I'm pretty sure I've read it's somewhere in the region of 90%. 



The following is from NetMarketShare.com as of April 2015. I think one reason why Microsoft wants to offer a free upgrade is obvious is you look at the market share of W7 vs. 8.1 vs. XP. Perhaps they don't want Windows 7 to become the "tube amp" of operating systems that people just want to keep using and using and using. If they're ever going to move past it, they need to get more people on board.
 





HAHAHAHA!!! I love it! Win7 is definitely the XP (and the 95) of the MS cycle. I hated Vista... like HATED it. I know people liked 8 well enough and I know they did a lot of performance enhancements but it just looked way too ridiculous for me.
 
I have high hopes for 10 actually and will definitely take advantage of the free upgrade period... at least on my laptop at first but then likely on my DAW. I have my bought and paid for Win7 disc if it ticks me off but I think this will be the "good" version in their usual cycle of "let's release something totally experimental, charge for it, see what annoys the hell out of everyone and what works then release the REAL version".
 
People complain about Cakewalk using us as BETA testers but MS has it down to a freaking art.
 
One thing about 10 that I almost thought was an April Fool's joke (and maybe it was and I'm just an idiot) is that Google Glass rip off that allows you to set up your programs inside your physical space. I would totally lose my freaking MIND with creativity if I could somehow edit and perform in Sonar just swiping around my room and punching at floating instrument GUIs.
 
HOW CRAZY WOULD THAT BE?!!!
 
Forget touch! I want to 3D thrashing!!!
 
 
2015/05/09 12:50:03
Beepster
John
Nicely put Beep. I ask myself why I admire Beep so much this post tells why very nicely.  




*fistbump*
2015/05/09 13:07:31
einstein36
Anderton
As I know nothing about operating system care and feeding, nor can I code, I am perfectly qualified to comment
 
I've always felt the operating system was something to leave as soon as possible so you can get into your application. If I boot up Live on a Mac or Live on Windows, I'm running Live - not OS X or Windows. Sure, Live depends on those underpinnings, but I don't care what the underpinnings are. The program acts the same way.
 
This forum is proof that Windows was not designed with high-level, professional audio streaming in mind. Look at all the tweaks and conflicts we have to deal with to "bend" Windows to our liking. Although the Mac is better in many respects from the OS standpoint, it has other limitations.
 
I've always thought it would be great if someone came up with a Windows variant that stripped away all the crap we don't need and was optimized specifically for media applications. You would dedicate a computer to running it, and all it would do is run audio and music software and go online. It would be conceptually like an MCI 24-track...a box that does one thing, but does it well.
 
 
Maybe a "Linux Media" operating system would do this. Or maybe not. What do I know?


If memory serves me right, a few years ago, there was a company that was offering a stripped down, optimized version of windows called something along the lines of Winlite or something along those lines, but Microsoft came along and sued the company and said they couldn't offer this version so the company went out of business.
 
Just like the MAC clones back in the days when there was many hardware PowerPC clones running mac OS that actually ran better than the true mac hardware pcs and Apple came in and sued them all and put a stop to the mac clones and of course as they say, the rest is history:)....Apple was failing in the Powerpc hardware and changed over to Intel and rewrote their OS for the hardware which improved their sales....
Same with Microsoft, back in the days, there were just a productivity os until games and audio applications came along and then they realized they needed to up their game in which they did with Win7 and now Win10...
 
2015/05/09 13:35:16
Beepster
einstein36
If memory serves me right, a few years ago, there was a company that was offering a stripped down, optimized version of windows called something along the lines of Winlite or something along those lines, but Microsoft came along and sued the company and said they couldn't offer this version so the company went out of business.
 
Just like the MAC clones back in the days when there was many hardware PowerPC clones running mac OS that actually ran better than the true mac hardware pcs and Apple came in and sued them all and put a stop to the mac clones and of course as they say, the rest is history:)....Apple was failing in the Powerpc hardware and changed over to Intel and rewrote their OS for the hardware which improved their sales....
Same with Microsoft, back in the days, there were just a productivity os until games and audio applications came along and then they realized they needed to up their game in which they did with Win7 and now Win10...
 



And that right there is the advantage of the "open source" nature of Linux. Heck... if MS or Apple opened up their code for task specific tweaking then collected royalties on the results of what was built from their patents they could make money, advance technology and make folks happy at the same time.
 
But that's not how big corporate tech works. There is a plan and schedule in place at least a decade in advance to optimize revenues. That's fine and I have no problem with capitalism BUT I also think it is to the detriment of their own bottom line and the advancement of tech age. If Windows was open source but said "hey... you're using our base code so pay us if you make a profit" we could be SOOOOO much further ahead.
 
Instead they shut it down with lawyers, stifle (or steal) innovations and keep on their predetermined schedule. Can't blame them because they learned the lessons of the initial tech wars early on and they became top dog but the top dog eventually falls if they don't adapt. Heck... notice how MS stuff is looking more and more like iThingie stuff?
 
As people get smarter and tech saavy (and trying to save a buck in the new economy) these open source options are gonna start looking better and better and those open source options are themselves getting more consumer friendly.
 
Time marches on.
 
Also, most probably know this but for those who don't... open source does not mean free. It just means the code is available for people to alter. Many Linux applications allow you to download and tweak for free but if you start making money off it you owe the original coders money.
 
That seems like a much more reasonable and progressive model for the tech industry. It is inclusive, encourages advancement, reduces inital overhead but also rewards innovation and common usefulness.
 
Now THAT is capitalism.
2015/05/09 13:50:36
Doktor Avalanche
Yup capitalism is alive and well in open source! And actually it could not survive very well without it... It would end up being hobbyist playground only (people saying Linux is a hobbyist OS are SO wrong!).. . This is the complete opposite of real life. I wish Govt's would adopt the open source methodology themselves when it comes to.... everything...
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