I've had some heated arguments around here about the accuracy with which Sonar records un-quantized MIDI. To me, I don't think it's all that accurate - what I play in is not what I hear back.

Just as a point of reference, I notice one of the features of the latest Ableton "Live" software is:

" Improved MIDI Timing
The MIDI engine has been reworked and we were able to significantly reduce timing error (jitter) of recorded MIDI."

So evidently, at least in that program, people were discerning MIDI timing error or "jitter". I definitely discern it in Sonar. Any comments on this?

Nick:

I agree about the WIPINWIG (What I Play Is Not What I Get) sometimes - I haven't thought about MIDI jitter as much as I have considered velocity issues between my old Ensoniq SD-1 that I use as a controller and the soft synth I am controlling. So you are saying you hear timing errors - is there a way to sync a controller to launch midi notes at specific times locked to Sonar and see if the triggered not drifts? There should be a way to do that eh?

-D

Well, jitter exists, no doubt. But Sonar has always been rock solid for me with every MIDI controller/interface I've used. I've always thought that since Cakewalk started around the same time as MIDI (well, same decade) that they had tweaked that particular beast to its maximum benefit. Once you get it right, there are no changes, I mean MIDI has been pretty homogenous since its inception. The only real variables lie in the controllers/cables/interfaces. Software-wise, its been a done deal for decades IMNSHO.

ORIGINAL: Nick P
I've had some heated arguments around here about the accuracy with which Sonar records un-quantized MIDI. To me, I don't think it's all that accurate - what I play in is not what I hear back.

So evidently, at least in that program, people were discerning MIDI timing error or "jitter". I definitely discern it in Sonar. Any comments on this?

Is your midi set at 960 ticks per quarter note? Otherwise you could be getting a whole lot of changes due to quantization error. 960 ticks should give you around 1 millisecond timing accuracy or less depending on your project tempo.

Midi devices I've owned that mentioned anything about Midi latency said that it's in the nanosecond range (meaning unnoticeable...)

You should be able to test if everything is the same by recording both your midi instrument as real-time audio and as midi. Then playback the recorded audio along with the re-triggered synth audio simultaneously. They will either be the same or they will be different. You may have to re-align clips and levels to get everything to playback in sync.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=490475... Jim Wright's posts...

It is not just a Sonar issue. Look to your MIDI interface as well. Not all MIDI interfaces are as accurate in timing as we may think.

If you're talking MIDI that is triggering a soft-synth:
When playing the soft-synth in realtime, there is a certain amount of latency (Sonar's effective latency).
Upon playback, the soft-synth is sample accurately played back (with latency compensation).
Thus, the timing of what's played back is slightly different.
This is one case where latency compensation can work against you...

ORIGINAL: Nick P

I've had some heated arguments around here about the accuracy with which Sonar records un-quantized MIDI. To me, I don't think it's all that accurate - what I play in is not what I hear back.

Just as a point of reference, I notice one of the features of the latest Ableton "Live" software is:

" Improved MIDI Timing
The MIDI engine has been reworked and we were able to significantly reduce timing error (jitter) of recorded MIDI."

So evidently, at least in that program, people were discerning MIDI timing error or "jitter". I definitely discern it in Sonar. Any comments on this?

If you are using USB MIDI interfaces instead of Firewire MIDI Interfaces or PCI MIDI interfaces then you very well could be seeing jitter and timing errors. A lot depends upon the speed of the USB interface, the drivers for the USB device, and what else may be sharing the USB bandwidth if there are multiple devices on the same root hub with the MIDI device. This would be seen in any application, not just SONAR. There has been some very interesting discussion about this in the past on this SONAR forum. I believe Jim Wright had some extensive things to say about it and had done a lot of testing a few years ago.

MIDI timing is only a problem if you have an underpowered computer. If that blue thing in your avatar is your computer, there's your problem.

MIDI timing is only a problem if you have an underpowered computer.

Nope. Sorry. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. But thanks for playing 5ster.