• SONAR
  • MIDI "Jitter" - It Does Exist (p.28)
2007/10/14 23:41:19
pianodano

ORIGINAL: dewdman42


ORIGINAL: pianodano
I guess what I was trying to say is I can spend several hours tweaking a part to sound so good (to my ears). Freeze it and it can play ok for a few measures and suddenly for no apparent reason, start stuttering ever so slightly. After working on the part for so long, you would have heard the part so many times you know every nuance and easily recognize when something is amiss. It never seems to regain the timing again once the rendered tracked gets fouled up. As I said yesterday, I quit trying here and just put it on tape now. It's one of those time is of the essence things if you know what I mean.


Yea, a frozen track is "frozen". It will never change after that. The question is why the "stuttering" you mention is getting frozen in. When you say "stuttering" can you describe that a little better..you mean that it sounds like a guitarist with bad sense of rhythm?


Yep - a couple beers too many

ORIGINAL: dewdman42

I'm really most suspicious that RealGuitar has bugs in how its handling midi timestamps, but there might be a way to work around it, try the fast and real time bounces. According to Noel, there are some issues with multi-processor machines sometimes. He says the work around is to do a real time bounce instead of fast bounce. I would try without even using "freeze" per say. Just hit record on the audio track and let it play until the end, capturing the audio performance on a track from your midi track...just like you would be doing if you were sending it to tape, but send it to an audio track instead. See if that works. I think that is more or less Noel's suggested work around for these kinds of plugin bugs.

Are you saying the 1.5 version is giving you the timing problems, the 2L version, or both?



2L. I don't ever remember freezing a track in 1.5


ORIGINAL: dewdman42

Disk streaming is another area where its possible that if it can't keep up with the streaming there might be some timing glitches potentially I guess. If there is a way to turn off disk streaming, try to do so to see if that helps.


I am pretty convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong with Sonar, but apparently there are plenty of ways for plugin developers to screw things up.

Someone else reported issues with TTS, so its not unique to only RealGuitar..but perhaps some common traps that some plugin devs might fall into. On KVR they pointed out that the original SDK for DXi had a flawed example project that did not correctly check timestamps and its possible that some plugins out there were based on that flawed example. And guess what, the nature of that particular flaw is/was that if the audio buffer size is increased the jitter gets worse. Sound familiar? TTS is a prime candidate for this possibility since its a darn old DXi based synth from way back when DXi's first came out. It was probably created in japan by Roland and nobody's looked at it since, but I could be wrong.




Complicated, I know that much. And so far I've only talked a little about RealGuitar.
2007/10/15 00:48:17
dewdman42
Guys, also, related to the metronome..there are definitely some bugs in Sonar related to the metronome. I have pasted some threads below where people are talking about it. I ran into it this year also and it frustrated the heck out of me. I found out that other people knew about it, and I can't actually find the best posts to reccomend the fix, but this is what I remember.

1 - If you use audio metronome, then under some circumstances it can completely screw up timing.

2 - One work around is to route your metronome to midi out instead of to a WAV sound. But then you can only use an external thing for metronome. But just turning off the metronome or routing it to midi may correct timing problems you might be hearing.

3 - Someone also suggested once that it is possible to use audio metronome if you specify to send the audio to a different buss or perhaps even specify the master buss; and not to the default location which is trying to send directly to the hardware audio ports. I can't remember if I tried it or not.

4 - A better way to create a metronome is to manually record clicks into a midi track and use it with SessionDrummer or something to generate the metronome sound. The Sonar audio metronome is unreliable.

In any case, I only mention this because if you are basing any of your decision about timing on the metronome, frankly I don't think you can trust it. Turn off the metronome for all tests and comparisons. I had a lot of problems with the metronome this year in S6, and the only thing I remember that fixed it was to send it to midi out(and since I don't have any external devices, I didn't hear it). Just a heads up.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1005643&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cproblemóµ¥µ
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1016284&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cproblem󸇜
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=962064&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cproblem󫅜
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=977031&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cproblem󮢇
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=996123&mpage=1&key=metronome%2Cproblem󳌛
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1013989&mpage=1&key=󸎍
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1017582&mpage=1&key=midi󸫞
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1013989&mpage=1&key=midi󸙝


2007/10/15 01:34:36
MArwood
What a LONG read. I've been wanting to post this for several hours, but did not want to till I read the thread. I just wanted to say that I argued with cake tech guys a couple of years ago about midi timing (no it wann't Noel! Glad he's here). I had some midi percussion I was layering with another midi track. I will say that the project was loaded! CPU was very high, audio buffers was very high 300+. It's the only way I could get the project to play. This was a AMD2400 and Sonar 5, & Layla 24 midi. I only noticed the drift, because there were percussion hits that were supposed to be at the same time. What I got was a flanged sound because of waveform phase cancellations. The cake tech guy told me I shouldn’t zoom in that far and that I could not hear what I was hearing! This timing was way more than a few ms. I did 2 things to help. I changed from a Layla 24 midi port to a Emagic Unitor 8. This helped some, but what helped the most was to get a dual core computer. This faster computer allowed me to lower the audio buffers. I don't exactly know why lowering the audio buffers would change the timing accuracy of midi, but it did. I’ll be interested in learning more about this.

Oh Yea, if you knew what keyboards were in my avatar you would know I'm older than in that photo!

Max Arwood

Spelling error again, If I had to choose spelling talent or music talent..........
2007/10/15 14:25:56
RTGraham
ORIGINAL: MArwood

This faster computer allowed me to lower the audio buffers. I don't exactly know why lowering the audio buffers would change the timing accuracy of midi, but it did.


In the time period during which the "drift" issue has been resolved for you, have you also upgraded to a new version of SONAR?

In the past, certain audio interface manufacturers had issues with their ASIO drivers, where timing would be accurate under certain hosts (i.e. Cubase), but SONAR chose to access the ASIO driver in a different way (though still perfectly legal according to the ASIO spec) which would introduce an additional timing offset into audio, proportional to the buffer size. On some people's systems this would also affect MIDI timing, with issues similar to what you're describing.

Under these circumstances, as you noted, lower buffer sizes could improve timing. But another improvement was due to the fact that newer versions of SONAR (definitely S6 and persumably S7, though I haven't upgraded yet) allow for an ASIO buffer offset in the audio options - and SONAR is usually able to automatically calculate what that offset should be, based on information it receives from the driver. So the timing issue simply disappeared on some people's systems, once SONAR incorporated this functionality. It's been a while since this was all discussed on the forum, so I don't recall whether there was another, separate fix to SONAR for the MIDI drift issue as well.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, though, what you were experiencing was a general kind of "drift" in one direction time-wise, as opposed to the rubber-band-ish "jitter" we've been discussing here. On your system, when you were experiencing the problem, were some hits earlier than expected and some later, or did everything get progressively later and later?
2007/10/15 19:50:05
pianodano
ORIGINAL: MArwood

What a LONG read. I've been wanting to post this for several hours, but did not want to till I read the thread. I just wanted to say that I argued with cake tech guys a couple of years ago about midi timing (no it wann't Noel! Glad he's here). I had some midi percussion I was layering with another midi track. I will say that the project was loaded! CPU was very high, audio buffers was very high 300+. It's the only way I could get the project to play. This was a AMD2400 and Sonar 5, & Layla 24 midi. I only noticed the drift, because there were percussion hits that were supposed to be at the same time. What I got was a flanged sound because of waveform phase cancellations. The cake tech guy told me I shouldn’t zoom in that far and that I could not here what I was hearing! This timing was way more than a few ms. I did 2 things to help. I changed from a Layla 24 midi port to a Emagic Unitor 8. This helped some, but what helped the most was to get a dual core computer. This faster computer allowed me to lower the audio buffers. I don't exactly know why lowering the audio buffers would change the timing accuracy of midi, but it did. I’ll be interested in learning more about this.

Oh Yea, if you knew what keyboards were in my avatar you would know I'm older than in that photo!

Max Arwood



Thanks for your input. I don't even know who started this thread, but I'm glad they did. Re your avatar, I see the B but I can't tell exactly what other others are. The one you're playing with your left hand really looks like a RMI (I remember the white tabs in the middle on mine) but I've never seen one in a wood case. Is your Hammond black ? I restored mine last year and did it in black. It is a very early 56 and I'm older than that.

Did you buy your new machine from one of the specialty type computer guys. I really hate to throw another $2500 to 3 grand into this stuff now because I have always had some timing issues but never before as bad as they are now. But I will if it's really the answer to solving timing problems. In desperation, I spent most of this year getting the tape recorder rebuilt, buying and setting up the new analog console and procurring vintage outboard compressors, reverbs and such so I could try to get away from these troubles. I just couldn't deal with it any more. The hard part for me is I love my sample libraries and I thought to just use the application mainly for edits and the libraries.

So, were you seeing recorded midi (and sometimes audio) events as late as 40 to 50 ms? Please tell more about the problems you were having in the past. My 1st machine for Sonar 3 was a AMD and I had no luck at all with it. The P4 I replaced it with would handle 30 or more audio and untold midi in 4, a bit less in 5 but in six I don't know what has happened. Task mgr cpu performace shows spikes at 98% running 9 audio and 24 midi tracks.

Dewdman, what's wrong with the metronome ? I haven't read the links yet. Is it late? eratic ?

Danny

2007/10/15 20:33:52
Nick P
I just hope the Cakewalk guys take notice of this thread and test and improve (if needed) the MIDI timing of Sonar and Project 5. If Ableton detected and fixed this issue, then based on logic, and my ears, I will assume that it is an issue with Cakewalk sequencers as well.
2007/10/15 21:31:17
MArwood
RT:
I know this sounds weird but, I had better midi sync in WDM mode. I changed computers during S5. It was so much better I have not even checked S6 or S7. It was a rubber-band-ish "jitter" timing. Some notes ahead of where they were supposed to be and others behind. At first I was kinda freaked out that some notes were recorded before they were played . Then I just figured that it was buffer stuff.

Danny:
Avatar - I think it is a MS20 on top, Korg string ensemble, Unknown synth, Crumar T1, Unknown Piano, and a clav of to the right. I wished that was a B, but the T1 was great through a Leslie, and wow was that T1 light! Now I play a K2500 and a Motif XS. Either one of these keyboards blow away all that whole stack!

I had a DAW computer built. Jim Roseberry did it for me. I spent about 2500.00, but you could get the same one for less than 1/2 that price now. I would probably get a quad core now. The thing I really like about my computer is that is has no fans in it. Well, it does have and Aux fan I can turn on when I need to. I have it in an enclosure, but I it's so quiet I leave the door open most of the time. I like to be able to put in flash drives and CD's with out messing with the door. When serious recording starts I shut the enclosure.

Now I'm really curious. I still have 5 installed, I'm gonna check and see if 5 is different than 7.


Max Arwood
2007/10/16 00:26:24
Jim Wright
ORIGINAL: Nick P

I just hope the Cakewalk guys take notice of this thread and test and improve (if needed) the MIDI timing of Sonar and Project 5. If Ableton detected and fixed this issue, then based on logic, and my ears, I will assume that it is an issue with Cakewalk sequencers as well.

Nick - In this post, and your first post of the thread, you seem to be implying that Ableton is doing a better job with MIDI timing than Sonar and Project 5.

Do you have any factual basis for this opinion? Have you compared Ableton and Cakewalk products, head-to-head, on the same PC, with the same MIDI interface? (I haven't done that comparison -- I have an old copy of Live Lite, but that's it.)

Just curious - and I wouldn't want to slam either Sonar or Live without being fairly sure of the facts.

- Jim

2007/10/16 08:55:41
Nick P

ORIGINAL: Jim Wright

ORIGINAL: Nick P

I just hope the Cakewalk guys take notice of this thread and test and improve (if needed) the MIDI timing of Sonar and Project 5. If Ableton detected and fixed this issue, then based on logic, and my ears, I will assume that it is an issue with Cakewalk sequencers as well.

Nick - In this post, and your first post of the thread, you seem to be implying that Ableton is doing a better job with MIDI timing than Sonar and Project 5.

Do you have any factual basis for this opinion? Have you compared Ableton and Cakewalk products, head-to-head, on the same PC, with the same MIDI interface? (I haven't done that comparison -- I have an old copy of Live Lite, but that's it.)

Just curious - and I wouldn't want to slam either Sonar or Live without being fairly sure of the facts.

- Jim




Jim - I wouldn't use the word "better". And I'm definitely not making any assumptions here. It could be that Cakewalk has done extensive MIDI tweaking which we don't know about. We've yet in this thread to hear from any of the Cakewalk guys. What I'm saying is that it looks (sounds) like this is an issue much more general than applied to any one software package. It very well may be an issue relating to the whole way computers deal with MIDI input and output as opposed to hardware sequencers (which of course have small computers within them, but not with Microsoft operating systems!). Possibly Ableton is just a bit ahead of the curve in recognizing and dealing with the issue.

After all of these posts and all of the interest in this thread (which amazes me), I just hope someone from Cakewalk will come in and let us know what is company's policy and philosophy on this issue.

As regards testing, with all due respect to the many scientific methods expanded upon in this thread, I still think I will stick with the "ears" test if I ever get around to it: Record some unquantized MIDI playing on a weighted 88 note controller to Sonar, my MPC2000, and maybe even dust of the old Roland MC-500 MKII and see how they all sound (feel).
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