• SONAR
  • MIDI "Jitter" - It Does Exist (p.39)
2007/10/20 00:14:34
RTGraham

ORIGINAL: pianodano
On a side note, if most of this is true, that must explain why I don't listen to the radio much any more.


Naw, everything on the radio is already quantized anyhow. <Big Grin>


ORIGINAL: pianodano

Also thank you Jim for sharing some of your exceptional knowledge on this subject.



I'll second that.
2007/10/20 02:19:57
Nick P
Guys, what a great thread! Now that we've heard from Noel and Dave, we have official company statements on this issue, along with numerical data supporting the evidence. Thus, assuming we trust their statements and data, which I do, we can conclude that (drum roll) Sonar is able to accurately record, process and playback MIDI data. Now making this happen on a practical level might take a bit of tweaking, but at least we can be reasonably sure that Sonar itself is not causing MIDI "jitter". (This begs the question: what is Ableton talking about, then?)

This thread, which has morphed into sort of a "white paper", will be transcribed and saved in my Sonar information file.

In the meantime, regarding USB-MIDI interfaces, will someone please comment on the suitability of the M-Audio USB Midisport Duo. That's what I use for my 88 note MIDI keyboard. Also, if USB is not the best choice for accurate MIDI recording, how does that square with the hundreds of USB-MIDI controllers on the market. For example, I have the (reasonably new) Edirol PCR-800. Are you guys saying this shouldn't be used to record accurate un-quantized MIDI because it's USB?

Finally, I'm glad the clock resolution thing seems to have been resolved. If I'm understanding Noel and Dave correctly, no matter what res you set the clock at, Sonar is going to read and write from the Windows API at 960PPQ. So there is no basis to a lower clock setting yielding better MIDI performance. Good. Another thing not to have to worry about.

So one more time, in considering the impetus I had to start this thread, what is Ableton talking about? How are they "improving" MIDI performance with Live 7?
2007/10/20 06:31:28
dstrenz
ORIGINAL: RTGraham
ORIGINAL: pianodano
Also thank you Jim for sharing some of your exceptional knowledge on this subject.

I'll second that.


I'll third that and have learned more about midi implementation on PCs from this thread that I could have anywhere else in the same amount of time.
2007/10/20 06:33:56
dstrenz
ORIGINAL: Nick P
So one more time, in considering the impetus I had to start this thread, what is Ableton talking about? How are they "improving" MIDI performance with Live 7?


They're the only ones that can answer that. For all we know, they merely tightened up their own midi implementation and/or fixed some bugs or faulty logic.
2007/10/20 12:18:41
Jim Wright
Hi Nick,

1. Re: USB MIDI interfaces

USB MIDI interfaces cannot perform quite as well as PCI or parallel-port interfaces (assuming all interfaces have decent drivers, etc.). Why? USB MIDI adds at least 1-2 milliseconds of jitter on top of the "baseline" jitter resulting from the use of the 1 millisecond Windows "MM" timer used for timestamping MIDI data.

See http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1191358 for more detail about where jitter comes from.

See http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1186189 and http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1186298 for some recent non-scientific timing tests I ran, on several MIDI interfaces I own. It's very clear that my USB MIDI products (Edirol UM550 interface, M-Audio Axiom 61 with built-in interface) have about 2 milliseconds more jitter than my EMU 1820M PCI card (with 2 MIDI ports). So, for timing-critical parts, I will use the MIDI-DIN outputs of my Axiom 61, connected to the MIDI-DIN ports on my EMU PCI card.

Use your ears. If you are happy with the results you get from your USB MIDI controller (or interface) -- great! Don't let us mess with your mind! If you're concerned - try a different kind of interface (PCI or parallel-port recommended; Firewire should also work better than USB MIDI, but I haven't tested that).

2. >> "Also, if USB is not the best choice for accurate MIDI recording, how does that square with the hundreds of USB-MIDI controllers on the market."

Most people don't notice the difference. USB MIDI is dirt-cheap, compared to other alternatives. Microsoft changed Windows in ways that made it harder to do parallel-port or PCI MIDI interfaces. Hooking up a USB cable is easier (and less risky) than installing a new PCI card. Modern motherboards have fewer PCI slots..... there are lots of reasons why the market has gone towards USB MIDI. Market realities dictate that many companies have to use USB MIDI, regardless of whether it's the "best" solution or not.

It may be worth noting, again, that the MMA has endorsed Firewire MIDI (I edited that spec, actually;it's linked from the MMA website) - but the MMA has never endorsed USB MIDI. Since lots of MMA members make USB MIDI products, this interesting fact doesn't tend to get much press. In fairness, I should also note that current USB MIDI interfaces perform a lot better than they did circa 2000 (7+ milliseconds of jitter, always, with occasional spikes well above that -- puh-leeeze!). The MMA might well decide to endorse USB MIDI today, because it's improved a lot, and is usable. My two cents; YMMV.

3. Re: "What is Ableton talking about?"

As dstrenz said - you'd have to ask them. My guess is that they had some sloppy code in older versions of Live, decided to clean it up, and decided to turn a bugfix into a marketing advantage. It's also possible (barely) that Live 7 includes a kernel-level event engine with < 1 millisecond jitter (see my first linked post above for a ramble about kernel-level stuff ..... but also note that performance with USB MIDI interfaces would not be improved much/at all by a kernel-level engine, because the 1-2 millisecond jitter of USB MIDI would "swamp out" any benefits of a kernel-level engine -- because jitter is additive.)

Their marketing claims really don't tell us anything about whether Live 7 is better or worse than Sonar 7 wr..t. MIDI timing. We just don't know. We'll have to wait for Live 7 to ship, and for someone to do some credible testing.

I really do like the idea of companies publishing a "MIDI Engine FactSheet". Here's what Ableton has promised to do, for Live 7:
MIDI Engine Fact Sheet
The MIDI Engine Fact Sheet documents MIDI timing tests on both Windows and Mac platforms using various MIDI interfaces and describes exactly what users can expect in terms of MIDI timing accuracy. Coming Soon.

I wish Cakewalk would publish a similar document.

- Jim, MIDI curmudgeon
2007/10/20 12:28:15
Jim Wright
dewdman42 -

I've edited my 'conclusions' post to add a bullet about metronome issues. It has a link to your post (http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1191679) for details/workarounds --- it would have been silly to rewrite what you had written so clearly.

- Jim
2007/10/20 15:59:50
RTGraham

ORIGINAL: dstrenz

ORIGINAL: Nick P
So one more time, in considering the impetus I had to start this thread, what is Ableton talking about? How are they "improving" MIDI performance with Live 7?


They're the only ones that can answer that. For all we know, they merely tightened up their own midi implementation and/or fixed some bugs or faulty logic.


Er, wouldn't that be faulty "Live-ic"?
"Living"?
Never mind.

I just hate to see this thread fade into obscurity, as all threads inevitably do, when it has become so comprehensive and informative, and especially if there's a chance that it can influence the industry moving forward.

Sticky, anyone?
2007/10/20 16:10:43
Steve_Karl
As far as the metronome goes ... here's what I've been doing for a few yrs. now:

http://www.sightsea.com/music/metronome.html

2007/10/20 18:56:15
dewdman42
Steve, great tip. That looks like the best work-around to me in terms of accuracy for sure. I like it.

one question, does anyone know what exactly is this "metronome buss"?
2007/10/20 19:06:45
Steve_Karl
In my work around the "metronome buss" is just a normal audio sub that I route the individual audio click tracks to.
The tracks being the ones that have the clicks on them as audio slices.

In one project I used 7 different tracks with volume envelopes on them so I could gently move between a 4/4 and 3/4 feel by adjusting the envelopes. At times both feels were audible.
The object of this was to have that same type of feeling in the music, i.e. playing in 3/4 but also having a 4/4 feel encompasing it.

An other cool feature of the way I'm using it is that I have the Volume for that buss and the Mute for that buss both "learned" by 2 controllers on my S90 keyboard.
So I can turn the metronome on an off and also adjust it's volume from my keyboard while I'm cutting tracks.

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