Hi!
 
I had a strange problem at the last show which totally puzzles me. Any kind of feedback that may help me to track this down to its root is highly appreciated.  I also posted this at the X32 forum, but since I used 2 different X32 makes with identical results and only swapping the DAW solved it, I thought I pick the brains of you guys as I'm desperate for ideas on what may have caused this ...

Here's the setup description and a sequence of what happened:

- we utilize an X32 rack digital mixer + S16 snake
- the X32 is hooked-up to a DAW (Sonar) run on a WINDOWS 8.1 tablet PC, which feeds 6 - 8 mono backup tracks to run along with the live show
- the system is thoroughly tested, all behind Furman power conditioners, been used several times before without any issues ...

- no issues during regular sound-check (approx. 1 hour) i.e. DAW turned off ...
- no issues when sending 2 channel audio from media player (several songs play back OK)

- HOWEVER, when running Sonar play-back, X32 RACK REBOOTS reproducibly about 1 - 1.5 minutes into the playback (it lists some *.cpp file at the bottom of the X32 display and the reboots)
- swapping the X32 rack to the backup X32 compact immediately causes the same situation (hence, no X32 hardware issue suspected)
- using different power supply DID NOT change the behaviour (still crashes about the same time)
- a problem due to USB transfer from PC to X32 is suspected ... running PC in airplane mode does not change anything, running it off the battery, does not help either ...

- EVENTUALLY, we changed to the backup DAW (which is a desktop WIN7 64 bit PC housed completely inside a metal housing, aslo running Sonar X3e) it ALL WORKED AS ALWAYS i.e. the entire show runs without a glitch (no reboots, no problems, ...)

- AND EVEN MORE STRANGE: when brought back to the studio, the same setup with the WINDOWS 8 tablet works perfectly in an extensive long time test ...


Although I can't be 100% sure that it's not a power supply issue, I suspect it's not (because it worked before and after), but it doesn't work/reboots when some strange signal comes across the USB connection (???), which also strange as the DAW didn't report any drop-outs ...

Any thoughts what may be causing this???

Many thanks in advance.

When you say "X32 Rack Reboots" are you saying the firmware in the hardware module was restarting or the software mixer app was restarting or...? Was the laptop ever rebooted at the show site? If not, and if it was subsequently rebooted before you re-tested at home, it sounds like maybe the area of RAM the X32 mixer software was using got into a bad state, and was not getting properly re-initialized with each restart software).

Berti : This is a good issue !  1st thing that comes to mind is Hydro/AC power .. if you only knew how many time's the Light Dimmers took out a HDR ! To help you fully we will need the make and model of the Laptop running 8.1 and clear device chain ...how are things hooked up !
 
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32-RACK.aspx
 
tellme your running this driver and firewire :  Firewire Driver 6.13.0 (July-09-2013)
 

when I say "X32 rack reboots" I actually mean that the digital mixer (=audio interface) reboots (firmware restarts as after a power out), but the reboot must be due to some internal failure (X32 displays a debug message of some cpp routine) ... the laptop is unaffected but of course loses connection to the audio device and hence Sonar stops a few seconds later and prompts for what to do ...
 
every involved component was of course rebooted (several times) on site ...
 
it was rebooted back home (but no other changes) and it worked again ...
 
I had taken the X32 completely off power for a short while to ensure clean reboot, so X32 mixer software should be properly re-initialized (and the backup X32 compact did likewise first time it was hooked up) ...
 
I wonder if something onsite (other than dirty power supply) could affect this ... e.g. the DJ rack was rather close by and used wireless connection to installed speakers (but I may be shooting in the dark here as I running out of ideas on what else it could have been ...)
 
 

Not fully following all that (too advanced for me) but just on the off chance this points you in the right direction...
 
Do you happen to be using a longer USB cable or a USB hub on stage? Their is a max length for that stuff to work reliably and the issue does sound like what would happen if the USB connection is dropped from excessive signal travel time.
 
I think there are cables/hubs that solve it (repeaters?) that boost the signal for long runs but I've only done minimal reading on that. Cheap hubs can cause the same thing to happen as well.
 
Sorry if that is way off the mark or dumb.
 
Good luck.

StarTekh
Berti : This is a good issue !  1st thing that comes to mind is Hydro/AC power .. if you only knew how many time's the Light Dimmers took out a HDR ! To help you fully we will need the make and model of the Laptop running 8.1 and clear device chain ...how are things hooked up !
 
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32-RACK.aspx
 
tellme your running this driver and firewire :  Firewire Driver 6.13.0 (July-09-2013)
 

thanks for the reply :-)
 
I'm not using the firewire driver - it's all USB (X-USB Card PC Driver 2.23 and Firmware V10 update (July-09-2014))
 
Laptop: Acer Tablet ICONIA W700, i5-3337U @ 1.8 GHz w/ SSD drive 4GB RAM WIN8.1 64bit
 
Device Chain: Acer Tablet => USB => X32 rack (@XUSB USB2.0 port) => LAN => S16 Snake
 
all other connections via XLR into S16 snake, except X32 MIDI OUT into LINE6 POD X3 Pro (to change bass sounds along with X32 scene changes)
 
X32 rack is hooked up to WiFi router biuld into rack for remote access with an Android tablet
 
 
 
 

Beepster
Do you happen to be using a longer USB cable or a USB hub on stage? Their is a max length for that stuff to work reliably and the issue does sound like what would happen if the USB connection is dropped from excessive signal travel time.
 
I think there are cables/hubs that solve it (repeaters?) that boost the signal for long runs but I've only done minimal reading on that. Cheap hubs can cause the same thing to happen as well.
 

Good point, Beepster.
 
It indeed runs through a USB hub and through an 8m USB cable (with a build in repeater of some sort) ... could this long USB cable see some sort of interference from signals we haven't had in other places???
 
YET, since we have a backup of virtually every component we need (even a spare mixer), we hooked it up the short way i.e. Acer Tablet => 1.5 m USB cable => backup X32 mixer and got an identical situation ...

Also maybe there is a vibration thing going on live that is not present in your test environment messing with the drives. Unfortunately Sonar is rather fragile and doesn't seem to handle any slight signal farts as well as certain other programs which is why I'd be hesitant to use it live. If I did I think I'd try to get some kind of Toughbook or something going on or maybe build a shock resistant rackmount setup but that is obviously costly and harder to screw with.

isolated power supply ! and if the club lacks power and its grid is taxed .. good luck !
 

FreeFlyBertl

Beepster
Do you happen to be using a longer USB cable or a USB hub on stage? Their is a max length for that stuff to work reliably and the issue does sound like what would happen if the USB connection is dropped from excessive signal travel time.
 
I think there are cables/hubs that solve it (repeaters?) that boost the signal for long runs but I've only done minimal reading on that. Cheap hubs can cause the same thing to happen as well.
 

Good point, Beepster.
 
It indeed runs through a USB hub and through an 8m USB cable (with a build in repeater of some sort) ... could this long USB cable see some sort of interference from signals we haven't had in other places???
 
YET, since we have a backup of virtually every component we need (even a spare mixer), we hooked it up the short way i.e. Acer Tablet => 1.5 m USB cable => backup X32 mixer and got an identical situation ...

Oh yeah... I'm no electronics genie ass but I could definitely see an interference thing going on. Not sure whether they sell hyper shielded cables but really I'd look at the cable/hub first. Was any of that stuff close to power sources on stage? I've found a lot of clubs have dirty/screwy stage power. It's annoying.
 
Heck, maybe even wacky lighting schemes were screwing with it. But with what I think you described as a timed frequency of drops it probably is just struggling to stay connected. Lots of info on the net about that kind of thing. Sorry I don't have any links handy.
 
Cheers.