irvin

joel77
Perhaps I misunderstood(it can sometimes be difficult to interpret meaning by words alone), but I did read your post and you said:

irvin
 
One final point: if the plugins in Sonar are good, why should people want to buy these +10db products at their regular prices? Bizarre marketing strategy by Cakewalk... 

I simply pointed out that this set of plugs offers something different. 
 
Regardless, we may just have differing points of view. It's all good.

Fair enough. Perhaps my point was not as expressed as clearly as I thought: I was criticizing Cakewalk, not +10db, because it seems to me that we are still in the "honeymoon period", where people (specially new users) would most likely be enjoying the new goodies. Offering a product (regardless of how good or bad it might be) that almost rivals the upgrade price does not seem like a good marketing strategy to me. The timing is all wrong, I think.
 
That said, I also think any third-party product offered by Cakewalk to its users should come with some sort of incentive: additional features or lower price. That's another marketing mistake (once again, in my opinion, and I might be wrong!). Loyalty to Cakewalk should have a reward, even if it's a small one - we humans like to feel that something special is being done for us...lol...
 
Anyway, all's good here, too.

I will just say that third party companies like Boz work very hard and this kind of DSP is not free. They don't want these plugins selling for special incentive prices like you suggest. I think you fail to realize that software development costs money and has a value. The same goes for Cakewalk products. I've mentioned this before, but SONAR has a roadmap and we'll be putting our exciting updates on a more regular basis. Drum Replacer is coming soon and should be very impressive. That being said, we'll also be releasing other new products and they won't be part of membership. The idea that everything we do moving forward, either third party or in-house being free, is not realistic and we'd be out of business pretty soon if we did that. 
 
 

Amen to that Andrew.

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
I will just say that third party companies like Boz work very hard and this kind of DSP is not free. They don't want these plugins selling for special incentive prices like you suggest. I think you fail to realize that software development costs money and has a value. The same goes for Cakewalk products. I've mentioned this before, but SONAR has a roadmap and we'll be putting our exciting updates on a more regular basis. Drum Replacer is coming soon and should be very impressive. That being said, we'll also be releasing other new products and they won't be part of membership. The idea that everything we do moving forward, either third party or in-house being free, is not realistic and we'd be out of business pretty soon if we did that. 
 

I don't think anybody actually expects that everything you ever bring out, particularly 3rd party products, will automatically be free from now on if you bought the "membership", I'm pretty sure that we can all grasp the fact that you have to make some money somewhere down the line and that the purchase is optional anyway, it just that the timing in this particular product wasn't the best given the way the new version was marketed with promises of exciting freebies and special surprises. I think any negativity would have been avoided if you'd said......... right, as promised, here's the first of the freebies, and then followed that up with the new additional purchase option. JMO and all that.

paulo

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
I will just say that third party companies like Boz work very hard and this kind of DSP is not free. They don't want these plugins selling for special incentive prices like you suggest. I think you fail to realize that software development costs money and has a value. The same goes for Cakewalk products. I've mentioned this before, but SONAR has a roadmap and we'll be putting our exciting updates on a more regular basis. Drum Replacer is coming soon and should be very impressive. That being said, we'll also be releasing other new products and they won't be part of membership. The idea that everything we do moving forward, either third party or in-house being free, is not realistic and we'd be out of business pretty soon if we did that. 
 

I don't think anybody actually expects that everything you ever bring out, particularly 3rd party products, will automatically be free from now on if you bought the "membership", I'm pretty sure that we can all grasp the fact that you have to make some money somewhere down the line and that the purchase is optional anyway, it just that the timing in this particular product wasn't the best given the way the new version was marketed with promises of exciting freebies and special surprises. I think any negativity would have been avoided if you'd said......... right, as promised, here's the first of the freebies, and then followed that up with the new additional purchase option. JMO and all that.

Paulo is right on the money.  We know everything won't be free.  We certainly aren't that naive.
But this product is the same price that it has been since it was released by Boz, and is the same
price as on the Boz website.  That means that being a Cake "member" has no advantage at all
in this case.  

We are well aware that software companies need to make money.  That's why they are in business.
But do they need to make THAT MUCH? (all relative).  

Cake could have made this available to "members" for $89.95 or offered a 10% (or even 5%) 
"membership" discount, and would have sold MANY more of these, making MORE money for 
both Cake and Boz.

This product could be sold for $49.95, would probably sell far more, and STILL make money, so
there are many factors that do have to be considered.  Look at Valhalla.  They make QUALITY
plugins and sell them for $50....

The "membership" model was supposed to give us a "membership" advantage, and, in this case, didn't
do anything.  THAT, and the timing of availability, are the issues.

KUDOS to Cake for being relevant, current, and seizing the opportunity to provide it's users with a Sonar specific use of an excellent 3rd party product on it's release!!

I understand the confusion but all in all, my assumption is that neither Cake nor Boz sleep in the same bed and I doubt that many if any DAW/VST developers work hand in hand to the extent that they plan their releases to coincide.

Caca occurs, please already...

Good Morning...
 
I went back through all of the threads/articles I found relating to "Boz" and did not find one reference to this being a part of membership. It was never in the announcements about the new features coming for members section either. It did come out two weeks after the new version of Sonar was released and this seems to be the root of the confusion??. We have discussed the price as it relates to the cost of updating (Producer to Platinum members only). I find this entertaining and odd because for example .. the Soft Tube bundle has always been more than the cost of the upgrade from my recollection.  As have some of the bigger DSF Pieces (Songwriters) comes to mind. And I do not recall much negativity around those. Melodyne's upgrade offer to Editor is another example that comes to mind.
 
What this does say to me as one who has updated from Producer to Equivalent level is that Sonar is a very good value in this sense. If someone from the Cake side had said, inferred, loosely referenced that the Boz product was a part of membership, I could understand this issue better.  It also implies that we are now assuming that we influence the business decisions of 2 independent companies...ie.. Boz and Cake have an established agreement on pricing and distribution.
 
We also should consider that it has not been a Month since the release of Sonar. I don't recall Cake saying that we would get items every single Month in a given interval around a certain time. Therefore (to me)They are still within a very reasonable time frame to deliver whatever goodies based upon the given information.  (Even if no freebies come in February, March or April IMHO) :)
 
My takeaway's from this are boringly obvious....
- Cakewalk may have to clearly announce what is membership related and what is not. An ie.. in the Store a tag that indicates membership pricing/non membership pricing.  Another or the same tag may be on items to clearly indicate "standard" or non membership vs specific items available to both groups.
- All  Market announcements should indicate its relationship to the member ship program including informing that it is not.
- Cakewalk may consider preemptively addressing the condition of if we did not say it, what issue(s) can come from that. (Could expend valuable energy but reduce residual headaches)
- As a consumer, I may want to allow flexibility in the information given in that I do not (boost or attenuate) :) from what is given.
- If given some specific conditions, some flexibility is useful until a time arrives when an actual breach occurs. An example I guess would be if one makes a loan to an associate with the terms being that it is repaid in a year (365 days. If the associate makes 12 equal payments every month, 4 payments every quarter, or one big payment in the eleventh month (Based upon stated teams)... The agreement is still good unless the amount is not paid in full at the end of the year (365 days).
 
I am starting to ramble so.. I digress.

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
I will just say that third party companies like Boz work very hard and this kind of DSP is not free. They don't want these plugins selling for special incentive prices like you suggest. I think you fail to realize that software development costs money and has a value. The same goes for Cakewalk products. I've mentioned this before, but SONAR has a roadmap and we'll be putting our exciting updates on a more regular basis. Drum Replacer is coming soon and should be very impressive. That being said, we'll also be releasing other new products and they won't be part of membership. The idea that everything we do moving forward, either third party or in-house being free, is not realistic and we'd be out of business pretty soon if we did that. 

C'mon, Andrew...I never said that DSP work is not hard or that it should be free. I never said it should be part of the membership benefits, either.

Accusing me of "failing to realize that software development costs money and has value" is a very dishonest and lowly way to argue your points. Show some intellectual integrity and show some respect for your customers. I criticized Cakewalk's timing and manner of promoting a third party product. You don't agree with me, that's fine. Just keep the debate honest. Please.

paulo

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk]
 
I will just say that third party companies like Boz work very hard and this kind of DSP is not free. They don't want these plugins selling for special incentive prices like you suggest. I think you fail to realize that software development costs money and has a value. The same goes for Cakewalk products. I've mentioned this before, but SONAR has a roadmap and we'll be putting our exciting updates on a more regular basis. Drum Replacer is coming soon and should be very impressive. That being said, we'll also be releasing other new products and they won't be part of membership. The idea that everything we do moving forward, either third party or in-house being free, is not realistic and we'd be out of business pretty soon if we did that. 
 

I don't think anybody actually expects that everything you ever bring out, particularly 3rd party products, will automatically be free from now on if you bought the "membership", I'm pretty sure that we can all grasp the fact that you have to make some money somewhere down the line and that the purchase is optional anyway, it just that the timing in this particular product wasn't the best given the way the new version was marketed with promises of exciting freebies and special surprises. I think any negativity would have been avoided if you'd said......... right, as promised, here's the first of the freebies, and then followed that up with the new additional purchase option. JMO and all that.

+1


That has been my point all along, Paulo. Thanks for making it so clear!

I would agree that the timing of this product was not well thought out.
 
I still say the success of the new scheme will rest on what is done over the next 12 months.
 
If you look at X3, it was the latest version for over 18 months (I am only echoing what I have read here). During the cycle there were updates up to X3e. By purchasing X3 as an upgrade from X2 you paid somewhere between $150 down to $99 (in most cases). During the 18 months, the updates were free. One would have expected in the old way to hear of an X4 which could be upgraded to for anywhere from $200 to $150 if you jumped on it immediately or less if you waited. The X4 would get updates free until there was finally an X5 ready for release.
 
With the new scheme there will never be the large jump to a new version, just constant updates and upgrade level changes. If X3 had actually functioned under the new scheme you would actually pay $250 to reach X3e. That is $150 plus 6 months for $100 (half the cost of membership at $200 a year).
 
If you look at X3 changes averaged over time suggest updates occurring close to every 3 months. The scheme suggests that members will no longer have to wait long periods to get new features and fixes, that these things could be dribbled out as soon as they were ready and not wait for a whole new version. The updates to X3 probably were not as significant in terms of new features, but more supporting of fixes and speedups.
 
The new scheme will have to deliver something that is more of the new 'feature'  feel within the next 12 months to make it seem any different from that which we have had in the past for cheaper. Time will tell, but I believe many people are watching for these events more intensely than they ever have in the past. If CW does not satisfy that anticipation, the participation will change ... and that would be people allowing subscriptions to lapse and only jumping back in for another 12 months when a feature appears that is highly desirable. I'm sure CW does not want that kind of sea change so soon after launch of the new scheme.
 
I am happy enough with what I have now even though it cost me more than it has in the past. Prices do increase. I am not slavering for any big changes or goodies. I expect timely fixes for problems and some modest features added in the next 11 months. Others may start get agitated or, as we have seen, jump on every new option that has to be paid for separately as being something that should have been given free to members.
 
Time will tell but we have to give it time.

cclarry
(1) But this product is the same price that it has been since it was released by Boz, and is the same
price as on the Boz website.  That means that being a Cake "member" has no advantage at all
in this case. 

(2) Cake could have made this available to "members" for $89.95 or offered a 10% (or even 5%) 
"membership" discount, and would have sold MANY more of these, making MORE money for 
both Cake and Boz.


(3) The "membership" model was supposed to give us a "membership" advantage, and, in this case, didn't do anything.
 
(4) THAT, and the timing of availability, are the issues.

I  addressed all these points in previous posts, but to summarize:
 
(1) and (3) It's a SONAR membership model, not a Cakewalk membership model. You cannot be a "Cake member," you can only be a SONAR member.
(2) Undercutting a manufacturer's direct price is generally not considered good form.
(4) The cross-platform plug-in was made available when it became available. The first major SONAR update (not counting the two that already happened) will appear this month, assuming no further difficulties with Cakewalk employees being able to make it into the office.