lludwick
I still say the success of the new scheme will rest on what is done over the next 12 months.

 
As I've often said, the onus is not on users to renew. It is on Cakewalk to provide updates that cause people to want to renew. And IMHO that's the way it should be.
 

If you look at X3, it was the latest version for over 18 months (I am only echoing what I have read here). During the cycle there were updates up to X3e. By purchasing X3 as an upgrade from X2 you paid somewhere between $150 down to $99 (in most cases). During the 18 months, the updates were free.

 
The cost of fixes is factored into the cost of the software. This is one reason why updates aren't made available for products that are no longer for sale. The cost of regression testing, especially if you go back more than one version, would raise the price yet not benefit anyone who updated. They would still have to pay for it, though.
 

With the new scheme there will never be the large jump to a new version, just constant updates and upgrade level changes. If X3 had actually functioned under the new scheme you would actually pay $250 to reach X3e. That is $150 plus 6 months for $100 (half the cost of membership at $200 a year).

 
Not really. Suppose this program had been introduced concurrent with X3. You would have paid $150 to get the upgrade from X2 to X3, as well as all the updates that have now culminated in Platinum. You would also have had the past year to evaluate whether the upgrade to Platinum and the additional content would justify renewing for another year. Also, you would have gotten all the Platinum features and fixes as soon as they were tested and available.
 

Time will tell but we have to give it time.

 
+1. Personally, I'm looking forward to the new features and content that are planned but I think the ability to make quick workflow improvements, including adding new functionality to a new feature, will be a big deal as well.
 

Anderton
 
(2) Undercutting a manufacturer's direct price is generally not considered good form.

You're probably correct in this situation...
....however... companies like Toontrack, etc.  Even with Cakewalk as I've found better deals elsewhere....  such as the $125 Platinum upgrade cost (form X3prod) from JRRShop.  I will ALWAYS look to the manufacturer for the best pricing first, but even places like Sweetwater sometimes offer better pricing on new products, when the manufacturer is selling at their advertised price.

With Boz's stuff also being made compatible with the ProChannel, that offers an advantage to Sonar users....say over other DAW formats.  So a slightly lower price geared towards those users *might* have been nice.

ALL that said, I find amusing that people quibble over $10 or so on stuff like software, and it makes it a deal-breaker.  Do these people buy guitar strings and put gas in their cars...or even eat out?  I understand good money stewardship, but it doesn't seem to relate to "serious hobby", passion, main business... fav activity... What if Boz just came out with his $199 price at the start?   And yes, gearsluts and that ilk will grip at anything..
 You get my drift (not like the snow drifts in Boston!).

mixmkr

Anderton
 
(2) Undercutting a manufacturer's direct price is generally not considered good form.

You're probably correct in this situation...
....however... companies like Toontrack, etc.  Even with Cakewalk as I've found better deals elsewhere....  such as the $125 Platinum upgrade cost (form X3prod) from JRRShop.  I will ALWAYS look to the manufacturer for the best pricing first, but even places like Sweetwater sometimes offer better [/quotyepricing on new products, when the manufacturer is selling at their advertised price.

 
Yes, that's certainly the case and I don't want to put everyone asleep with the intricacies of Minimum Advertised Price and such. It's really all about having a good distribution relationship. Companies like Sweetwater are expected to discount. In this case, Cakewalk does not want to undercut their dealers otherwise there's no incentive for dealers to carry their products. With a small/boutique plug-in company, as you've surmised the situation is somewhat different. Although people complain about the price, most software companies would rather sell a ton of something than a small amount. There is a certain "magic number" where if they go under that number, they won't make any money but if they go over it, there won't be perceived value for the customer - and the company won't make any money on it anyway. 
 

Do these people buy guitar strings and put gas in their cars...or even eat out?

 
A bit OT, but you'll like this...Gibson support got a call from someone who said he couldn't keep his guitar in tune, and this just happened recently because he'd had no tuning problems since he bought the guitar 3 years prior. The support tech asked which strings and what gauge he was using. "I don't know, whatever came on the guitar." The tech suggested he might want to change his strings more often than once every three years...so apparently, some people don't buy guitar strings!

I would be curious to hear any information about the product and its performance, if that is ok :)
 

it's another crayon in your toolbox  :-D
 
But seriously, there is a demo that is full functioning.  I thought it was nice, top notch, etc.  But EQs and Comps are something that I think are hard to evaluate in some instances.  Meaning, it is usually the subtleness of it that is what usually differentiates it from another.  You can certainly abuse the settings in these items and have it still sound pretty good...if not great.  My take at this point is that Cakewalk already offers items of similar quality, and it's really if you want something slightly different than what they have.  For now, another EQ and comp isn't at the top of my list, to help improve my recordings.  The GUI is outstanding.

It's a very good plugin.  I'm with mixmkr, the GUI is outstanding.
It would definitely be worth having in the toolbox...
but so is every other tool in the right situation...LOL

Anderton
 
(2) Undercutting a manufacturer's direct price is generally not considered good form.

Funny, that's what companies like JRRShop, AudioDeluxe, Waves Universe, Plugin Discounts, 
PluginBoutique, Time + Space, Sweetwater, etc ...do all the time....guess they must have missed that memo...

If you're negotiating with a Company to "sell their Product" especially being a DAW, with an 
established current market share, that NOW has a "Membership Model", you have to sell the fact that the
"Membeship" will be buying (hopefully) lot's of the product and that it would be beneficial to BOTH Boz
and Cake to "offer an incentive to the membership"   This by no means undercuts Boz, as they have
their OWN webshop that would most likely not have all these NEW customers if it were not for the
"membership".

Marketing and Economics aren't that complicated.  

This answer is highly "Political" Craig....a CYA answer so to speak....

Here's some other "trivial" information...

Since Gibson has taken over we lost:

Our $20 gift at the Holidays...didn't get anything this year. (we received this every year
since I've been a customer - but DIDN'T get it since the takeover - I'm sure that 
was a great cost savings to the company (Gibson))
No real New Years offers either...what was there was "normal" fluff.
We didn't get a "Valentines Day Sale" or a "President's Day Sale", or really
any other "real" sales since the takeover...The "monthly specials" have been
pretty much the same since before the New Year...the Breverb and TH2 "sale"
prices were more then what was being asked by the discounters...

I'm just saying that what is being touted as an "advantage" doesn't (so far)
seem to be any...none really...

I love Sonar...I always upgrade.  But I get REALLY REALLY REALLY tired of:
 
Fanbois...who believe the company can do NO WRONG.  Believe me THEY CAN!
Political "run-around" answers ...that don't address anything...it's a CYA thing...
Jargon and out and out BS (politics) speaking in "double speak" in the hopes
that no one is really paying attention....there's a lot of this on both sides...

So really....WHERE has the "Advantage" been so far of this membership model?
Oh, that's right, we got the "upgraded product we paid for"...

You say two updates, but only ONE during product release.  The other was
during "pre-release", so that's another "political" statement...as it was really only
available to the "random-privileged few" who were "chosen" to get the product 
early...not the "non-privileged ones" who had to wait for REAL release...

Not being argumentative, just calling it like it really is...

cclarry
Funny, that's what companies like JRRShop, AudioDeluxe, Waves Universe, Plugin Discounts, 
PluginBoutique, Time + Space, Sweetwater, etc ...do all the time....guess they must have missed that memo...

 
I'm assuming you didn't read my responses before replying because I already addressed this. FYI although I am not familiar with all the companies you mentioned, I do not think any of them are manufacturers. They are distributors, which is addressed in the post I referenced in terms of a dealer relationship. What makes the Cakewalk/Boz relationship different, and more complex, than a simple dealer/distributor relationship is that they are both manufacturers and distributors.

If you're negotiating with a Company to "sell their Product" especially being a DAW, with an 
established current market share, that NOW has a "Membership Model", you have to sell the fact that the
"Membeship" will be buying (hopefully) lot's of the product and that it would be beneficial to BOTH Boz
and Cake to "offer an incentive to the membership"   This by no means undercuts Boz, as they have
their OWN webshop that would most likely not have all these NEW customers if it were not for the
"membership".

Marketing and Economics aren't that complicated.  

This answer is highly "Political" Craig....a CYA answer so to speak....

 
I hope that those who actually read my various responses on this subject would consider them realistic, and very much aware of how marketing and economics work in a tiny and specialized industry with thin profit margins.
 
I know pretty close to how many copies of, say, Steinberg Wavelab or NI Komplete Ultimate were sold last month at retail. I know what the margins are. I know how many developers work at companies. My opinions have a strong factual basis.
 
Marketing and economics are quite complicated. If they were easy, every company would have great marketing, be successful, and prosper economically.
 

Here's some other "trivial" information...
 
Since Gibson has taken over we lost:

Our $20 gift at the Holidays...didn't get anything this year. (we received this every year
since I've been a customer - but DIDN'T get it since the takeover - I'm sure that 
was a great cost savings to the company (Gibson))
No real New Years offers either...what was there was "normal" fluff.
We didn't get a "Valentines Day Sale" or a "President's Day Sale", or really
any other "real" sales since the takeover...The "monthly specials" have been
pretty much the same since before the New Year...the Breverb and TH2 "sale"
prices were more then what was being asked by the discounters...

 
Since Gibson took over, you gained: 

• A company that didn't go out of business.
• Continued viability and availability of the DAW you use.
• Five updates in six months for X3.
• Additional hires for support (perhaps one reason why several people in these forums have commented on the high quality of support).
• A far more stable platform with notable workflow improvements (perhaps you missed this very significant document).
• The new features in the current version, like VocalSync, Mix Recall, the Control Bar, dynamic sends and FX in Console view, reworked icons, further VST3 support, convolution reverb with importable IRs, improved AudioSnap, improved PRV, etc. etc. etc.
• The equivalent of two paid updates (this year's and next year's) for the price of one.
• Regarding not "real sales," all I can say is that if you own X1 or X2 and want to upgrade to Platinum, open your emails (although X1 to Platinum for $199 already seems pretty decent to me).
• A completely revamped installer that allows incremental updates and fixes (which weren't possible before).
• A merging of three completely different and incompatible web sites into a single site with single sign-on. This was essential to go forward with the connected installer.
• The ability to have updates as soon as they're ready and tested.
• The option to pay monthly for the many people who asked for this, and the means to implement recurring purchases.
• Authorization to hire more developers.
• 16 ****in' amps (okay, I had to get that in).

IMHO you gained a whole lot more than you "lost." 
 

I'm just saying that what is being touted as an "advantage" doesn't (so far)
seem to be any...none really...

 
You qualify that with "so far" but still comment...don't know if you're talking about Gibson ownership or the advantages of membership, but as to the former, I consider having Cakewalk not only existing but thriving as a considerable advantage. As to the latter, if you think what's offered over the next year doesn't justify renewing, then don't renew. You will have gotten the next year of updates anyway, so it's not like you're out any extra money. I truly don't understand why some people (not necessarily you) cannot understand this.
 

I love Sonar...I always upgrade.  But I get REALLY REALLY REALLY tired of:
 
Fanbois...who believe the company can do NO WRONG.  Believe me THEY CAN!
Political "run-around" answers ...that don't address anything...it's a CYA thing...Jargon and out and out BS (politics) speaking in "double speak" in the hopes
that no one is really paying attention...

 
Well I love SONAR too, but do you really believe that I hope no one is paying attention to what I write? C'mon!!!!! I would greatly prefer if people did, so they wouldn't bring up subjects I had already addressed many times over.

So really....WHERE has the "Advantage" been so far of this membership model?

 
This is a year-long program. You'll find out the advantage when the first update is released, which based on one forumite's speculation, will be one of only two updates in the next year. :facepalm:
 

Oh, that's right, we got the "upgraded product we paid for"...

 
And a commitment about the next 12 months, which is what would have been next year's paid update.

You say two updates but only ONE during product release.  The other was
during "pre-release", so that's another "political" statement...as it was really only
available to the "random-privileged few" who were "chosen" to get the product 
early...not the "non-privileged ones" who had to wait for REAL release...

 
First, let me make it clear that Cakewalk did not promise hourly or weekly updates, but monthly and even then, I think they said "about monthly" as opposed to giving a specific time of the month. That means 12 during the course of a year. I feel it's a little premature to expect earth-shaking updates a few weeks after the program was released. Those updates would have been included with the program if they'd been that close to fruition. The first update after a release traditionally emphasizes bug/workflow issues. 
 
Nor do I believe that the 200 "early adopters" didn't get a real program, didn't pay real money, and the Melodyne update wasn't real. You can complain all you want about a "random privileged few" who were "chosen" to get the product early, but I can only assume you are not aware of the MASSIVE tech changes that had to happen to make incremental updates and a unified web site (installer, store, and forum) possible. If you were, you'd realize this was a huge undertaking with a lot of moving parts. Cakewalk was exercising caution to make sure everything worked before opening up a possible Pandora's box. And yes, it did catch a Melodyne issue and yes, it was updated. And the amps were updated, too.
 
I'm sure that if Cakewalk had not tested things out and there had been a major problem, the consequences would have been far more severe than some disgruntled comments from people who don't differentiate between a "soft launch" and a "hard launch." (These are not political terms; here's a link, and here's another link.)
 

Not being argumentative, just calling it like it really is..

No, calling it as you think it really is. Which is fine, except I believe there's so much wrong with how you see it. So I feel a need to respond, and it drags down the level of a thread that's SUPPOSED to be about a new product - its pros and cons, applications, and how to get the most out of it.
 
With all due respect, IMHO comments such as yours do a disservice to those people who come to this thread for its intended purposes, which I've Italicized and bolded bove so they're clear.
 
And with all due respect to me, my comments are also a disservice to these people. I'd rather not have to give lengthy responses over and over, but I understand this is the internet and open to the public. People not seeing the full picture is consistent with seeing only a limited data set. I am trying to provide additional data other than speculation so that people can make informed decisions.
 
I do not think you can find anything I've said in this post that is not 100% factually accurate.
 

Wow, this thread is kind of a bummer. Not only is the Sonar Platinum upgrade a good deal (look at Pro Tools new update fees/policy), but this plugin by BOZ is incredible as well. Sure it's not cheaper here than on his website, but Cakewalk made a deal with him to include PC versions and that gives the plugin added value to Sonar customers. This plugin stands up there with the latest UAD-2 and Slate offerings and I've been using it since it first came out since I'm a fan of the actual ADR hardware. BOZ did a great job and the emulation is spot on. If Universal Audio put out this plugin it would be $250-300... $99 is a steal! If you don't know what the ADR is, I would look it up... if you don't know why people think it's special, I would definitely try out the demo... if you can't hear why it's special, hey no worries... you don't have to buy it! Teaming up with a developer to create additional content for Sonar users isn't a bad thing... because of that, they are selling this plugin on their website. Nothing more, nothing less. Sonar subscribers will most likely get their updated features in the months to come... I'm personally excited to see what their drum replacer brings to the table. I can't understand why people are complaining about any of this and I'm stoked to see all the people who have purchased this plugin as I really want BOZ to make more well executed plugins based on unique hardware (do we really need another LA2A or 1176 at this point?). Sorry for the rant... just bummed by the response of some people in this thread.

theheliosequence
Sorry for the rant... just bummed by the response of some people in this thread.

Don't feel alone. I've been getting PMs from people who feel the same way, but don't want to waste time trying to reason people out of unreasonable positions.
 
Ultimately, what matters is numbers and the reality is that the new SONAR is doing extremely well, particularly in terms of bringing new users to the program (which I hadn't really expected to the degree that it's happening). Cakewalk must be doing something right.
 
I suspect after a few of the updates hit, the cynics will figure it out.
 
And now, back to the pros, cons, applications, and how to get the most out of the David Bendeth Signature Compressor.