mister happy
Cakewalk Inc. is still registered as a corporation in the state of Massachusetts.
 
It has not actually shut down, but when it does it has to either make good on its commitments to it creditors or file for something like a chapter 7 bankruptcy so that a arbitrator may manage the debts. As end users we represent a very large group of creditors and we would be sure to get the attention of a judge.
 
A bankruptcy court can arrange for a trust to be created, with some of the proceeds from the sale of the office furniture and the I.P. so that an authorization system may be funded to serve in perpetuity.
 
The Bandlab deal has been arbitrarily described as a purchase of assets with none of the liabilities. Deals like this have precedents, and in general it not considered ethical for a corporation to sell off its assets while it hides its liabilities behind a cloud of obfuscation.
 
Presumably Cakewalk just got a pot of gold from Bandlab. Cakewalk Inc. should either make a commitment to its customers or Bandlab should step up and claim the responsibility and make an actual bona fide commitment to keep authorization of Cakewalk Inc products possible in perpetuity.
 
This issue has nothing to do with how much free stuff has been made available, or how much is promised in the future. These gifts and promises amount to sort of shell game. It seems as if it is hoped that we will look in one direction without thinking to much about what should be happening.  What should be happening is that Cakewalk Inc. should make good on its commitments, and Bandlab should be free to pursue success as well.
 
Bandlab puts itself in an awkward position, made even more so when its representatives attempt to convince us to abandon our interest in Cakewalk Inc.'s commitments and accept a new Bandlab product as a substitute.
 
Any customer of Cakewalk has a right to expect access to their existing licenses, without any need for explanation on the part of the licensee, regarding the choice to install and continue to use the licensed software for as long as a system will run it.
 
I maintain current licenses for lots of software while running older versions of those products for reasons of my own choosing. 
 
If a software company, Cakewalk, Bandlab etc. can not commit to providing continued access to authorized installations then it seems unwise for an end user to expend any effort in becoming proficient with that companies software.
 
I would like to make use of SONAR Platinum for the next ten years or so. I have accepted the idea that the 10.17 version is static and will never change. I will no longer be surprised by things like nifty new black PRV changes and all that other good stuff. I think I can grow to like SONAR Platinum.
 
I would like to use SONAR Platinum but the thought that I may not be able to successfully install it five years from now makes me realize that it may not be worth spending another second with it. I am not currently interested in Platinum spin offs, and consider the suggestions that we should all be satisfied with migrating to the spin off product to be overly simplistic, patronizing, and boorish.
 
What I do know, is that 5 years from now I will still be able to activate my license to SONAR 8.5, and I will still be able to benefit from the time invested in becoming proficient with it.
 
I can't say the same thing for Cakewalk by Bandlab. It may turn out great or it may be sold to a venture capitalist who just got back from a great time at Burning Man. Who knows.
 
In the mean time I would like to feel reassured that Platinum is worth using.
 
If The Cakewalk insiders were true friends of the millions of customers that are claimed to use SONAR they would keep us abreast of proceedings at Cakewalk Inc. so that we may contact the appropriate parties when it is time to claim the need for protection regarding the ability to authorize the software licenses we have been granted.
 
Thank you.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Let me know how the lawsuit goes. I'm interested in making music, not winning ideological arguments and have been trying to communicate with the people who can provide solutions to the issues I am dealing with due to this thing that is unforeseen, but is something that happened. Past tense. There is only the future.
 
You don't speak for anyone but yourself, and you can file a lawsuit. You do not speak for me, so please speak to Cakewalk on the matter through your attorney. It does no one any good here. Start a forum thread about a class action if you'd like. Bandlab reads these forums and they are quite busy, so posts like mine which were asking something simple and practical need to be asked multiple times or they get drowned out by posts like this.
 
I come to these forums and see these long posts not about practical things of how to proceed during the transition and how to accomplish things, but statements on general principle that aren't ever going to go anywhere. You won't get anything from Cakewalk, which was owned by Gibson. If you want to sue them stand in line.
 
Please don't drown out the people who are trying to work with the transition if that is your view. Let your lawyer do the talking or start a separate thread. You have every right to your feelings and opinions, but if you want to be made to feel like Platinum is worth using, I don't think anything short of winning a lawsuit is going to reassure you at this point. We as platinum users are a commodity to Bandlab - that's how business works. They have an interest in keeping the Sonar user base, which is good for us. Saying the company may be 'a venture capitalist who just got back from a great time at Burning Man' is not respectful, polite nor does it show you're guided by reason on the issue.
 
Trying to wade through all of these posts with my own vision problems is bad enough, but talking about trying to force Cakewalk to provide an unlock for IP they sold. Best of luck with that. If this was a serious concern to you, you'd already have your lawyer lined up and be filing a brief the moment Cakewalk shut down and no longer offered the updates.
 
Noel answered my question and I proposed a solution a practical problem but it's getting buried underneath talk about suing Cakewalk, as if blood is going to come from a stone. I agree with you in principle on some points, but I'm too busy making music to care about anything other than moving forward. I'd suggest you do the same, or at least post in a different thread about suing something that is technically still registered as a company, so it's easier for people to find concrete answers.

 
 

Good luck suing Gibson. You'd be at the end of a very long line. From what I've been reading, Gibson's creditors have no interest in restructuring - they want the company. It's been suggested that this may have even been an intentional scheme: lend enormous amounts of money to a gullible and/or overzealous CEO that you know will never be able to repay, then get the whole company for pennies on the dollar. It's happened before. In fact, it's the basic business model for so-called "vulture capitalists".
 
Gibson borrowed a lot of money in order to branch out into markets they knew nothing about and had no history with. Like DAWs. Not one of Gibson's new ventures was ever profitable, including Cakewalk. Anybody remember those awful-sounding overpriced studio monitors Gibson was hawking? Guitar sales were supposed to save the day, but surprise! lowering the quality of said guitars while raising prices - turns out that doesn't do anything to spur sales. Who knew? Apparently, everyone but Gibson's top guy.
 
At any rate, you could indeed make a case that Gibson should honor commitments it made. It's just not going to happen. I'm sure there are a few ex-Gibson (or ex-Harmony) employees who'd like to see their retirement accounts honored, too.

mister happy
Cakewalk Inc. is still registered as a corporation in the state of Massachusetts.
 
It has not actually shut down, but when it does it has to either make good on its commitments to it creditors or file for something like a chapter 7 bankruptcy so that a arbitrator may manage the debts. As end users we represent a very large group of creditors and we would be sure to get the attention of a judge.
 ...

I agree your point of view and strongly agree.

bitflipper
Well, keep in mind that SONAR Platinum includes components that neither Cakewalk nor BandLab own, products paid for via royalties from SONAR sales. No sales, no royalties. BandLab has no right to give other people's stuff away.
 

I think this might be the issue several folks have. They paid for a version of SONAR with these components active - which if paid for by the royalties from SONAR sales must be part of their particular purchase. If a fresh install is required to utilise these components then there should be a way to activate them. I still have my old SONAR disks which used the old activation system - so the argument must be “if I can install and activate a 10 year old product and their associated components, why can’t I do it with a 6 month old version?”. I appreciate that BandLab is moving forward in a very positive manner but it’s never going to clear this one up until there is some form of key issued to users who might want it.

.

An other good post mister happy

groverken

bitflipper
Well, keep in mind that SONAR Platinum includes components that neither Cakewalk nor BandLab own, products paid for via royalties from SONAR sales. No sales, no royalties. BandLab has no right to give other people's stuff away.
 

I think this might be the issue several folks have. They paid for a version of SONAR with these components active - which if paid for by the royalties from SONAR sales must be part of their particular purchase. If a fresh install is required to utilise these components then there should be a way to activate them. I still have my old SONAR disks which used the old activation system - so the argument must be “if I can install and activate a 10 year old product and their associated components, why can’t I do it with a 6 month old version?”. I appreciate that BandLab is moving forward in a very positive manner but it’s never going to clear this one up until there is some form of key issued to users who might want it.

Agreed. And I'm gladly moving over to CbB from SPlat to enjoy working on fresh up-to-date engine but if anytime in future that one should go down too, I'm no more hoping, no more planning, for any alternative solutions to unlock Bandlab's version since it's only on-line activated. My concern is that I was told "if you paid 12 consecutive months of monthly payments or pay up-front - you own the software"... that's what I was told when buying Sonar Platinum. I paid up-front. Now I've been told that we're not sure how long the activation servers will run... oh dear.

mister happy
What is not routine is for another entity to step in and offer an informal maybe, or maybe not, attempt at reassurance when that entity has carefully avoided the obligation to make a commitment regarding the subject.
 
Anyone who accepts the current situation as a best case scenario is simply backing themselves into the corner further and allowing themselves to become further committed to a reliance on a partner who has not actually made a commitment.
 
There is an easy solution. Cakewalk can do the right thing. Bandlab could have done the right thing, and made the purchase contingent on Cakewalk doing the right thing. There is a simple and right thing to do. It can be done, it should be done, and it should be done without anyone having to resort to unpleasantries.
 
Do the right thing.

I am not saying you aren't making many valid points. But why you are making them I don't understand. What are you asking be done specifically because you don't seem to be speaking to Bandlab directly, which is an option, to Noel who is transitioning over from Cakewalk, which is an option, or to Cakewalk via an attorney through a lawsuit which per your logic, would be routine.
 
What is the point? Moral high ground? Preachers don't preach to the choir if they want something to change. Meng has made himself very available and you can be directly addressing this topic right to him if it's that important to you.
 
I resent the idea that 'Anyone who accepts the current situation as a best case scenario is simply backing themselves into the corner further and allowing themselves to become further committed to a reliance on a partner who has not actually made a commitment.'
 
I'm adapting and trying to accept what I can and can't change. I've made a point of asking about the servers, what happens with an unlock in the long run, and I'm not getting any answers that are absolute. I can either press for them repeatedly, and keep not getting them, or just work on making music and adapt to the situation.
 
You and I both rolled the dice on this remote activation server for authorization. Don't pretend like you didn't know what you were getting into when you got into it. I had Cakewalk assure me prior to a sale, in writing, that this situation would not happen. If anyone could bring a lawsuit, it'd be me since I have documentation of what could be considered fraud, and demand a refund or an unlock through legal action. So what? It will go nowhere and there is no point in trying.
 
The Right Thing - Here is a link to Meng's profile, so if you really want to ask about 'doing the right thing', contact him directly and ask. He's made himself available. http://forum.cakewalk.com/Profile/1212693/
 
Let us all know how it goes. Cakewalk is gone, whether in the fully legal sense or not I don't care. I just need to be able to archive projects and keep working on music.
 
But don't pretend like you didn't know that this was a roll of the dice when you went from your permanent activation with previous software versions of Sonar to the activation server with Platinum. I can at least claim ignorance since this is my first time I've been able to actually buy the program and I had no choice but to use the activation servers. You had the opportunity, it seems, to not upgrade and not accept these terms, yet you did. But I'm not on a pulpit talking about The Right Thing, I'm doing the thing that lets me keep making music when something that sucks happens.
 
You want the right thing. Well, you're not getting it, and what you're getting isn't good enough. Ask Meng. Explain it to him. He's made himself available. Report back when you actually know something and aren't venturing into legal technicalities and allusions to some sort of moral Right Thing.
 
I'm not backing myself into any corner, by the way. I'm walking out of one, down a path and asking questions to the people who are paving it. You can always find another DAW and just let the whole thing go if you don't like how things are going. You have options. I'm choosing mine, you need to choose yours because you're clearly not satisfied but first it's the legality, now it's the morality, but what is the real issue you are trying to bring up?
 
They're not releasing an unlock, full stop. That much we know. Cakewalk wouldn't have either. I don't pretend to understand the legalities involved with them doing it or not doing it. They're keeping the servers online - you seem to want that, and they're doing it. Cakewalk never made any promise that they could maintain the servers until the end of time, or what would happen when they stopped maintaining them, that I'm aware of.
 
Let us know what Meng says when you ask him about this. He is making himself available to us all. Talk to him and report back. I'm happy with Noel's answer for myself. You don't seem to be, so bring all this directly to the new owner. You might get your resolution that way, whatever it is.

 

ch.hueyNo, there was never any statement it would stop running. It was said that it WILL run, but for how long no one knows...

What's the difference?
 

Cactus MusicWhy are people still obsessing about the server issue? 
We've been told it is not an issue, end of story.

Here:

chris.rI was told "if you paid 12 consecutive months of monthly payments or pay up-front - you own the software"... that's what I was told when buying Sonar Platinum.

Bottom line is, without any kind of off-line activation, if you build up a project archive that's precious to you, they own you. I picked Sonar precisely because at the time it didn't require activation or dongle. That changed when I updated, which took me by surprise. Now it changed from bad to hopeless, so I'm out while I don't have much to loose.

zombiequeen

ch.hueyNo, there was never any statement it would stop running. It was said that it WILL run, but for how long no one knows...

What's the difference?
 

Cactus MusicWhy are people still obsessing about the server issue? 
We've been told it is not an issue, end of story.

Here:

chris.rI was told "if you paid 12 consecutive months of monthly payments or pay up-front - you own the software"... that's what I was told when buying Sonar Platinum.

Bottom line is, without any kind of off-line activation, if you build up a project archive that's precious to you, they own you. I picked Sonar precisely because at the time it didn't require activation or dongle. That changed when I updated, which took me by surprise. Now it changed from bad to hopeless, so I'm out while I don't have much to loose.

I'll say this again so hopefully people will hear it... If you're jumping ship, revise your archives so you don't have access to Sonar Platinum ever again.  The permanent unlock was an option that is not on the table anymore, that has been stated repeatedly, and was only an emergency measure that is no longer necessary. How anyone feels about that doesn't matter if your only concern is your archive - and if that is the case, there are options available now that you can do.
 
If you have older versions of Cakewalk that can activate, it would be worth going back to those. You can always open those if you have the activation codes.
 
Alternately, stay on board and wait until Bandlab lets loose with the final version, and see how much doesn't carry over. Archive in the new program. Test it out on either a virtual machine (VM) install, so you can see how much is lost without Sonar Platinum not being installed under Cakewalk by Bandlab, or to a new hard disk, or something where you don't have Sonar Platinum, but have everything else you own. It will be forward compatible with Bandlab, but you will be dependent on activation servers most likely in the future no matter what it seems.
 
CWB files are universal to both SPlat and CbB. If there are any differences, there probably won't be many, and you can account for that in archiving - this applies to moving forward with CbB, or to reverting to an older version that has an activation code you own, and can use on any machine you want. I'm assuming you have X3 or older, which I understand doesn't have the activation problem of Sonar Platinum. Either way, you should be able to keep everything in an archive you can open whether you jump ship or not, and there is more than one way that accounts for the servers going offline at some point and you not having an activation. Again, you don't have to like it, but to say that there are no alternatives is not true.
 
I'm assuming that at some point, I can't use Sonar Platinum, so I've already tagged a lot of my archive that is dependent on it, or isn't, and can be stored as only WAV files, and can't. I don't have an older version of Sonar to revert to, so I'm going to go with CbB and save both in Platinum and that. I doubt there will be any differences, but I'm very anal retentive.
 
If you jump ship it's way more work, and I'm not, but I won't judge anyone who does. This ignores the morality/legality/theography issue of getting your final activation code for Sonar Platinum. There is a way to see how much you will or will not lose by converting your archives to CbB if you stay on board.
 
If not, you can always start converting back to a previous version of Sonar that you own the activation for. I'm not going to be waiting for a permanent unlock for Platinum personally, and I'd suggest that anyone who is might want to take advantage of one of the above strategies, all of which can be tested on free VM software or a new Windows install/partition. It's the abundance of ways to archive that be overwhelming, but the best answer we are getting is this:
 
The servers will stay online to activate Sonar Platinum. There is no need for an unlock key, since Bandlab has stated it will support it. No answer on how long, but it's not tomorrow. Hate it, love it, doesn't matter, you can now prepare and have your options and I've suggested many for people to use if they hate it or love it.
 
If I had a previous version I'd start saving Platinum in that if possible as a backup just in case, but I don't, so I'm limited, but above are the options devoid of judgement on whether or not we 'deserve' the unlock. Anyone who does have a previous version can try this, since we're all heading for a new mobo and cpu at some point and need to reauthorize.
 
There are options on the table for anyone whose sole concern is archiving their projects, assuming even the worst case scenario, at this point. You might not like them, but they're there and Noel has said where Bandlab stands.
 
If you don't trust Bandlab, then I have listed some viable options above so you can jump ship, or if you do, there are viable options above. Either way, you have options.
 
Really trying to be helpful here so please don't mistake this for a condescending answer, just one that is pragmatic. What happened happened, and all the issues about 'ought to' are not practical solutions for archiving. I'm only concerned with pragmatic, and right now that assumes no permanent unlock but the servers will stay online for a period of time that is long enough to figure out your own strategies.