• SONAR
  • It's happened again - Dagnabit dead pan (p.2)
2013/07/19 16:57:26
pianodano
Well I can give you guys the long version or the short version. Long version will take a while to type all the data so here is the short.
 
Panning works exactly as I anticipated it should in EWQLSO going direct to convertor (LESS Sonar) and into Desk. Can put strings, horns, you name it anywhere using the EW PLAY pan widget. From no signal in left channel to no signal in right.
 
Then I set up a new project and named it panning test.
 
Panning works exactly as I  expected it should when EW is inserted in Sonar (Stereo track). Then I set up a automated pan. Pan response functions as it should from hard left (no signal at all in right channel) to hard right (no signal in left channel). Tried close mic positions and hall.
 
Then I inserted a new Stereo enabled track in Sonar. Recorded the same cymbal crashes the drummer played the other day. Nothing changed as far a mic setup. The mics always stay on the drums in the booth. Same overheads.  Set up a automated pan envelope. Exactly the same response as with EWQLSO above. Hit the same cymbals. Panning  works exactly as is should.
 
Guys I really meant it when I said in the op that I have seen pan positioning fail to respond to the slider and envelopes before. Don't know what gets corrupted but something does. This is about the 3rd time in my Sonar career I have seen this event happen. Buggy.
 
 
2013/07/20 00:40:57
bitflipper
That's because the EW pan control is a dual-mono pan like the one in Kontakt, not a balance control like what's in SONAR. It's the functional equivalent of using the Channel Tools plugin, albeit more convenient.
 
No, it's not a bug in SONAR, just missing functionality. What SONAR needs is a pan mode that internally splits the stereo track into two mono channels and then pans each of them with one slider. Fortunately, the Channel Tools plugin does provide that functionality.
 
Don't sweat the theory, just leave the pan slider in the center and use Channel Tools to position your stereo tracks. Better still, avoid stereo tracks to begin with (yeh, I know that's not always convenient with sample libraries, but for drum overheads two mono tracks is do-able and a better option).
2013/07/20 02:37:30
Bristol_Jonesey
If you are stuck with stereo samples, convert them to audio & bounce down to split mono
2013/07/20 07:36:16
pianodano
Dave, Jonesey, It seems like (based on your replies) that what I wrote must not have been understandable (if that's a word).
 
So to reiterate,  after all the tests using samples were completed (which does work perfectly using stereo samples Jonesey) . . .
 I rerecorded the same stereo overheads cymbals in a new project in a stereo track and they pan as they should. Or at least as I expect they should.
 
Can anyone point me to a specific thread or data where Cakewalk discusses that they have improperly functioning pans on stereo tracks ? I hope to learn more about what is wrong.
2013/07/20 12:07:26
bitflipper
I've never seen any mention by CW of "improperly functioning pans on stereo tracks". Just reiterations of the fact that the pan slider functions as a balance control on stereo tracks. Some might consider that improper.
 
You got me stumped as to why the re-recorded overheads pan differently. Assuming the same mic positions at the same distance and identical processing on the track, the new track should behave identically to the old one. Try loading both tracks side-by-side into a test project and see if they behave differently from one another. If they do, use a correlation meter to compare their stereo-ness. 
 
 
2013/07/21 19:11:22
robert_e_bone
Is there any chance there is a different panning algorithm specified between the different projects?
 
I found the following content from WAY BACK in Sonar 6, but I think the same data holds true today:
 
The Pan Laws affect audio in Sonar 6 in the following manner. 

*** "w/o track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was used
so panning does not affect export levels.

*** "with track automation" exports, the "Raw Tracks - No Automation/FX" preset was chosen first
followed by selecting "track automation" in the mix enable list. Panning will affect export levels.

Discussion and Testing Procedure are described at the end of the document.
Last Updated: 02/25/2007

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, sin/cos taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% +3 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB +3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +6 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +6 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-3 dB Center, square-root taper, constant power
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -6 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB 0 dB -3 dB 0 dB -3 dB
Stereo Mono Center 0 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
-6 dB Center, linear taper
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB -12 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB -6 dB -6 dB -6 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB -3 dB -6 dB -3 dB - 6 dB
Stereo Mono Center -3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB - 3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB + 3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB



//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
0 dB Center, Balance Control
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

|- w/o track automation -| |- With track automation -|
Clip Type Track Interleave Panning Playback Export Mono Export Stereo Export Mono Export Stereo
==================================================================================================================
Mono Mono Center 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Mono L 100% 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Mono Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Mono Center +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Mono L 100% +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB +3 dB
Stereo Stereo Center 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB
Stereo Stereo L 100% 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB +3 dB 0 dB





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discussion and Testing Method Description
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This chart describes Sonar meter values relative to the peak values of the clips in the tracks and not Sonar meters
compared to exported file levels, although this can be deduced from the data by comparing Playback values to Export
values. In almost all cases the playback (ie Sonar's meter) levels are exactly the same as exported file levels or
are +/- 3 dB different as a result of any stereo->mono conversion and/or pan law.

If you rely solely on Sonar's meters to determine levels and understand stereo->mono conversion then, in general,
you don't have to worry or think about levels. The issues develop when you really want to maintain the original
clip levels such as when exporting raw (and possibly edited) tracks for use in other software. However, since Sonar
is a mixer it will still send the clips through multiple types of processing even when you disable all the options
on the export dialog. The chart describes how clips are affected when exporting them through this minimal and
"unbypassable" set of processing.

There are some cases where center-panned tracks have different levels depending on whether track automation is
selected or not. They are not panned so track automation should theoretically not affect them. These only seem to
occur in the -3 and -6 center pan laws though.


Here is the testing method used to create the tables above:

1. Create 2 short (~30 second) audio files that are (severely) hard limited to have a near-constant peak of -8 dBFS
(for simplicity and easy reproducibility). For the stereo file, both channels should peak at -8 dBFS. These clips
are best created in a separate audio editor. Under theoretical conditions both files should show a peak value of
-8 dBFS.

2. Create project with 8 tracks. Put the mono clips on the 1st four tracks and the stereo clips on the other 4
tracks. Adjust the interleave and panning on the 8 tracks to correspond to the 8 scenarios.

3. Set the pan law.

4. Play back the project, look at Sonar's meter on each track, and compare them relative to the -8 dBFS theoretical
value.

To test the export values:

5. Click Edit->Select->None

6. Open Export dialog, create file name, uncheck all "mix enable" options except fast bounce, choose source as
"Tracks". Do not alter sample rate from the original sample rate of the clips.

7. Choose file type and check automation as appropriate

8. Export the files

9. Open the 8 individual files in an audio editor and read/record the peak value in the file relative to the
theoretical -8 dBFS value.

Repeat starting from step 3 for testing the other pan laws.

Again, the chart values are relative so for example, +3 dB = -5 dBFS and -3 dB = -11 dBFS, etc. With good naming of
tracks and export files along with competency with an external audio editor the process can be simplified and
streamlined. In fact, every value in the chart could probably be verified in under 60 minutes once the project and
clips are setup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a thought - I also did a quick read to begin with (sorry about that)

Bob Bone


2013/07/21 19:30:40
pianodano
I will be back in the studio in the morning and will take up Dave's suggestion. I have no idea why anything in the 2 overhead recordings would have changed from one project to the next. Mics always stay in the same channels in the board, same locations in the booth. The Channels are sent to the board busses (groups) so that output level may have changed but I do not see how that could affect the stereo field.
 
Thanks Robert for the lookup and post. I vaguely remember panning discussions re several versions over the years. I seem to remember Greg Henderschott had something to say about it. I need to study your post but I am somewhat confused because it seems to relate to exporting audio. But that's just fist glance.  
2013/07/23 10:10:19
Bristol_Jonesey
I don't think the various panning law options have changed for many years in Sonar.
 
Does your board have a polarity/phase inverse switch? Check that both tracks are set the same way.
2013/07/23 10:45:49
bitflipper
Pan laws only affect loudness compensation (left and right) as the track is panned, not the ratio of left to right, which is what determines the track's virtual location in the panorama. 
2013/07/23 10:53:57
Cactus Music
Overall I just wonder why you would use a stereo track at all. As Dave said way back, use 2 mono tracks. 
The only thing I ever use a stereo track for is when importing a clip or a whole song. 
I could also see if I recorded the output of a hardware synth or guitar processor I might use stereo. But I would most likely use 2 mono tracks there as well. 
Think about the old tape based machines. 4, 8, 16 or 24 mono tracks. All returning to a desk with all mono channels. 
Best if each mike has it's own mono track. 
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