Hey, guys
 
This is probably well discussed topic, but I want to ask about it in details. I am listening many demo submissions of the electronic music artists who searching for a record deal. Many tracks I am listening are not that complicated but sound very clear and very loud. My tracks usually much busies, have more stuff, but always significantly lower in volume and clarity. I do understand that with 5 tracks it is easier to accomplish clarity than with 50, however... I finally got myself Izotope Ozone mastering plugin. I have tried several presets. It makes my tracks louder, but now that much loud as those artists have.  
 
My partner keeps saying that the reason their music has clarity is because they use Macs and Macs have better algorythm for audio conversion and recording and that Logic Pro and ProTools are better software, also that Apogy and other Mac-specific audio interfaces, Ad/DA converters just sound better.
 
I am big Windows defender, I built my last computer at the specs that exceed current Mac specs (well- may be not last Mac Pro), but I can not deny obvious difference in sound. If you on Spotify, try to listen Armin Van Buren A State Of Trance compellation. It comes with about 30 tracks of very high quality of trance songs every week. There is no way the quality of my music would come any close to their level. I do not know how- do they put reverb on each track? Everything is big. I can see a drum track standing out, everything is full and beautiful.
 
But ok. Back to reality. I hear young kids, new- coming producers sound clearer and louder than me, and I have been working on it for 20 years.  
 
1). Loudness. Yeah, I know about the Brickwall compressors. But not all of them use Brickwall to make it loud. When you mix, do you let your individual tracks clip, or do you keep all tracks under 0 db? How about Master output? This time I mastered this song with Ozone, and I made it +1 db. I did not like it, but I let it clip. Nothing horrible happened. But it still not anywhere close to the levels those youngsters have. Do I increase it to +3, +5? How do they get it so loud and yet no distortion? Is distortion real? Do we have to stay under 0 db?
 
2). Clarity. I am listening my old tracks on Spotify, and thinking- not wondering nobody downloads it. It sounds awful. Astral  You dont have to listen it, just in case you want to- here is the link. This was made with Delta 1010 and Phonic Helix FireWire mixer (not Class A). Now I have Presonus StudioLive and hope that it will get better but still. Feels like these new producers just sound clear on their little  Macbook Air and such with no effort. What you think? Thank you.
 
 

Mac or PC makes no difference whatsoever. Both machines just do calculations and even use mostly the same components, like Intel processors. Pro Tools or Logic have no inherent audio qualities that make them better than Sonar, and there are quality audio interfaces for Mac and PC.
 
What makes a HUGE difference is mixing and mastering. As just one example, I use quite a bit of Concrete Limiter on acoustic drums. It tames the peaks and brings up the room sound. I also add some EQ in the upper mids so the percussive hits have more "snap."
 
On bass, a lot of times I'll add a little bit of saturation. It makes the bass "pop" more and stand out better in a mix.
 
By the time you've applied a variety of techniques to all the tracks in a mix, you'll have more punch, more clarity, and assuming you don't go overboard, a better audio experience. Then get a good mastering engineer, and it will improve another 20%.
 
I tried to listen to your music but the browser on this particular laptop doesn't support Spotify. I'll try later.
 
 

hi, i'll try to get this started and hopefully others will also chime in to help. 
 
Firstly, there is an exceptional rule never to cross and that is never get any digital signal above 0db during the mix stage. As for the mastering stage, although it is allowed to go as far as 0.0dB however, the danger is that upon down sampling, there is a very high chance of distortion if True Peaks run above 0.dB during the D/A stage.

the other misconception is with regard to the Mac vs PC thing... there is absolutely no truth in that statement at all. You can have the best of hardwares but not observing the basic fundamentals, it would not server you either. understand that music is fundamentally sound - it is energy and must conform to some sort of science. Be strong and be brave to trust the equipment you have. There are many of us here who are long time users of Cakewalk's DAW and many of us here have produced much ever since getting our hands on our very first version of this wonderful DAW.
 
Ok... coming back to your issues... one of the first thing you may wish to do is monitor calibration. If you dont have a fixed reference level 83dB at Unity, it is almost impossible to determine just how loud you are mixing. (Do a search for "Monitor Calibration" and try to follow the Bob Katz system.) Bob Katz K-System comprises of 3 different settings. Just not to confuse the issue further, for electronic music, it is generally acceptable to mix and master using the K-12 System.

One of the specifics discussed in length is recording levels. As with electronic music, i'll assume, most will be composed using MIDI, Soft Synths and perhaps outboard synths. If you are recording back into the DAW, just ensure you do not go over -6dbFS; same for soft synths after bounce to track.

As you have got Ozone, contained with in Ozone are the K-System Metering Systems - from within you can select the K-12 metering system. I am not sure if you have just Ozone or Ozone Advanced. With Ozone Advanced, there is a Meter Bridge. Using the Meter Bridge, just keep your average levels at 0, while they peak (into the reds) is more or less the correct loudness for the K-12 system. K-12 means that you will have 12dB headroom to play with.

again using Ozone's Limiter, you can use it to push your levels up even more especially with the IRC III setting. Honestly, i'll advice against this as music needs some room to breath as in dynamic range. To seriously max out will just kill all the effort you have put in during the mix stage. 

As for clarity, one trick is to see what instrument frequencies are clashing using Ozone's Spectrogram. Placing the Meter Taps on individual tracks in Sonar and viewing them individually inside Ozone. Use the EQ to reduce overlapping frequencies or panning the instruments to either side.

On a final note is also using the high pass and low pass filters on individual instruments to reduce mud and cut off any highs which are not present. 

For kick drums and ultra low freq bass, you may want to try high pass at 60Hz, 12db slope and add a +5db boost at 40Hz with very high Q. if you have a sub-woofer, you will be able to feel this. Test this to see if it translates well on playback other systems.


Finally when you have completed the mix, you may wish to compress the track to -12.0db RMS with -0.3db peak. A word of caution is although you may wish to push this any higher than -6.0db RMS will kill off any dynamic range present and chances of distortion will be very high.

hope this help and good luck... cheers!!!

Thank you for your detailed replies. Here is a song that I made in 2008. I did everything I could to it then, and left it to ripe for a while. Then I returned to it in 2014 with all experience I gained over time, and invested 2 weeks in listening it over and over and over and trying to alter every detail to make it better. So I feel- there is NOTHING I personally can do with it to make it louder. Also it was mastered on Ozone at +1. It was recorded with Phonic Helix FW mixer- not very high class audio- I think my Presonus today can do better job. This song was recorded at 16/44.1. Not trying to get you to listen my music, just need to see what I am doing wrong.
https://soundcloud.com/vl...clean_astral_2014m-wav
 
Keyz, you saying almost exactly the same thing my partner is saying, but I am not understanding a half of what you saying. First of all- I just bought Yamaha SH8 monitors 2 days ago. For the last 20 years I have been using headphones to mix. How do I know what volume I am at? Well- I am comparing it to the other tracks. I hear many much weaker tracks that are much louder. I can bet those kids have no idea what you talking about and not doing all those great things you suggested, and their mixes sound better than my. Ok- should I say- sound louder? If a person does not know how to write a song or make arrangement, I doubt they know that well how to mix and use high pass filters, but their mixes sound louder and clearer.

Placing the Meter Taps on individual tracks in Sonar and viewing them individually inside Ozone. Use the EQ to reduce overlapping frequencies or panning the instruments to either side.

I doubt it would be practical to place meters on individual tracks (not know how to do it). This song has over 70 tracks. I do not know what frequencies overlapping. If I have 3 synths sounds playing at the same time in the same range- how would EQ make them not overlap? All 3 have exactly the same frequencies, just different patterns. But they all in the same middle range. I do not like to Pan instruments. Everything I use is panned Center. May be I should reconsider this, but when I hear something to the left or to the right, I feel like I am about to loose a balance and fall off the chair. I hate panning to either side. In fact- this song has accidental pan at the beginning where drums first start on the synth sound, and it drives me crazy, but I could not fix it.
 
Ok, I do not use Hi pass filters, I use EQ- the one on the channel in Sonar. I get rid of everything under 50 Mhz. Is it how I supposed to do it? Now- what do I do with highs? When I used Ozone setting, it added lots of highs- it was not me- it is Ozone preset. I did not like it but it was best preset for the song. Electronic music has lots of shhhh and sssss- it would be dull without highs. So what you say, I should do?
 
I put Compressor almost on every individual track. I dont know why- supposedly to get rid of picks and make it punchy? I use that old compressor that comes with Sonar from older versions- it stored under Direct X. It has Multiband and regular compressor. I use presets for drums and synth or vocals... I have Native Instruments Complete, which has many compressors, but I do not hear much change- it gets louder and starts clipping, I turn it does and a track sounds the same, so I can not tell that it obviously became more punchy.
 
My drums. If I make them any louder, they would overpower the synths. I dont like them loud, but in commercial production, it is not loud- it just stands out.
Here is A State Of Trance link. You need to have Spotify installed, and I strongly recommend to use it- it has everything- for free and for $10 a months- I have more music than I can listen now. A State Of Trance Episode 658  Listen closer to a middle of the list.  
 
 
This must be combination of 16 bit and my old Phonic Helix interface that is gone now- now I use Presounus Studiolive. Again- while what I hear while I am making song sounds very clear, the commercial trance music sounds much much better than what I hear right from Sonar via my $200 headphones.
 
So when you talking about Monitor Calibration- which monitors you talking about? My headphones or my new Yamaha SH8? (I actually did not even hear it playing yet- only hooked them up).
 

Ozone Advanced. With Ozone Advanced, there is a Meter Bridge. Using the Meter Bridge, just keep your average levels at 0, while they peak (into the reds) is more or less the correct loudness for the K-12 system. K-12 means that you will have 12dB headroom to play with.

I have Ozone Advanced for now. What you mean by average? You mean- I can let pics go over 0 db long as average is still under 0 db? Is there a setting to monitor by average? I thought we looking at picks.
 
There was a preset in Ozone- something Breakwall limiter. I did not like it. But I do use one of the Ozone mastering presets, as I do not hear well enough to make my own settings. I believe it has EQ and compression. As I said- I set it to run at +1, and it still not anywhere close to how loud everyone has it.
 

First of all...I'm a HUGE State of Trance fan. And I can tell you right now that most DJs
SLAM THE LIVING CRAP
out of their music with maximizing multiband compressors, like the Waves L3. There's a practical reason for this, because you don't want to be tweaking the volume all the time when doing a DJ set.
 
Personally speaking, with your music there's actual dynamics, which I like. I'm enough of an adult that if I want the music louder, I look for something called a "Volume Control."  Apparently most people aren't aware of this amazing technology LOL.
 
Ozone has a maximizer that you can use and is quite effective. FWIW I've mastered hundreds, maybe even over a thousand, tracks in multiple genres and my speciality is trying to get a mix as loud as the client wants but with the dynamics I want. It's fine line.
 
Tell you what. Put a WAV file where I can download it, like Dropbox, or send it via Hightail.com and I'll do a quickie mastering job to show how you can make your sound quality as bad - I mean, as loud - as everyone else. PM me for an email address.
 
You can hear how I've mastered my own music by checking out the videos in my sig. You can skip the first one, it's a ballad...go to "Magic Spell (I Wish I Was in Berlin Remix)" to hear how I master dance-type music. I consider my mastering to be on the dividing line between dynamics and "loud."

Oh, and two more things:
 
1. You might want to mix the voice down 1 or 2dB, or limit (not compress) it more.
2. I kept listening  I think there are techniques you could use while mixing that would really benefit your music. Remember, the Mute button for tracks is your friend...dropping things out, then having everything come crashing back in can be very dramatic...
 
 

Anderton, thank you for your reply. I liked the song "So Tell Me Why I Shouldn't". First part of the song kind of dominates on the right and it is some what not comfortable. Now if you say, it is original and you wrote this song... As a health professional that I am... I should not say anything as this is not a medical forum. lol.
 
The it gets better as the song progresses. Nice material. Little bit too much psychedelic for my brain. lol. Your videos makes me dizzy. Must be a good thing if you looking for it. 
 
I have to think of where I can upload the song. You would need unmastered version, right? I do have a box account. Also mastered version that you heard is downloadable from the Cloud.  

vladasyn
Now if you say, it is original and you wrote this song... As a health professional that I am... I should not say anything as this is not a medical forum. lol.

 
It makes sense if you watch all the way to the end, where it says "This song is dedicated to the veterans who survived a war, but not the return to society." I received many comments from veteran's groups when it was first posted thanking me for understanding and making people more aware of this problem. But this isn't a political forum, either, so we'll leave it at that.
 
Besides, I recommended you  listen to "Magic Spell"...that's more appropriate to the kind of music you do. "So Tell Me Why I Shouldn't" is more like rock mastering. But thanks for listening

There are actually a multitude of factors "at play," but would be hard to explain well in a concise manner. Complexity and clarity are often competing. Focus can only be given to one thing at a time usually, so how focus is shifted is important to keep the listener following the song. I believe it was George Lynch who made a comment that getting carried away with speed runs loses the listener because it is "too many notes." He was a good person to say such a thing, since it carries more weight, but speed loses "expression." Simple can be sorely underrated at times.
 
Similarly, loud can quite easily lose expression in the same fashion. Twisted6 made a very good comment recently to the effect that if people like something, they will turn it up. I was at a place last night where the music was so loud that 1/2 of the place was empty (luckily there was a partial wall between the two halves, at it also included a restaurant). But loud, and the lack of a volume knob drove people away. I just chuckled and said to the people I was with, "Even with great music, loud had its boundaries.... welcome to the 'threshold of pain.'"
 
Just food for thought, I guess, and not a "solution" in any way; but "complex" and "loud" have their boundaries, and neither necessarily make something "better."
 
 

vladasyn
Anderton, thank you for your reply. I liked the song "So Tell Me Why I Shouldn't". First part of the song kind of dominates on the right.  

I believe that if you're going to do stereo, it can be used for a dramatic effect, not just placement. So yes, the electronics tend to be placed toward the right at first. When the distorted guitar and strings come in more on the left later on, I think they make more of an impression as well as provide some "release" for the "tension."
 
Personally, I actually like centered sound, as that's what live performance sounds like. But in an electronic medium, non-traditional placement has its uses if you're trying to create a specific emotional response.
 
I'm not saying this is right, wrong" or even desirable. However, my years of being a "teenage rock star" are many decades behind me , and I've been doing music for a long time...so I'm interested in trying different approaches. Several people have commented that the only things my songs have in common is they're posted by the same person to YouTube