• SONAR
  • Latency on new install, new laptop.
2014/11/10 07:13:31
percepto
What are the possible causes of latency?
Which settings should I be aware of within Cakewalk and also with regards to any Windows background processes?
I have my CME UFS controller linked by midi cable to my Babyface and this set-up worked fine on a previous project on a Lenovo laptop. I did a test with 4 tracks of midi, 4 different instruments and I have to physically edit every note as they don't go where I played them.
Can anyone advise me or point me in the right direction to find out this info?
Thanks in advance
2014/11/10 10:04:11
Anderton
Start with this article. Also check out this Tip of the Week. But a few more details would be helpful, like whether you're using any plug-ins that have latency, and whether the issue is you can't get low latency or the issue is that low latency settings cause crashes. Also remember that some instruments suck a lot of CPU. 
 
I'd suggest starting with recording audio tracks with no plug-ins and seeing what kind of latency you get there before getting into the variables of virtual instruments and MIDI.
2014/11/10 10:17:02
lawp
what's different between this project, and the previous one that had ok latency? a whole different laptop?
2014/11/10 11:04:00
Jim Roseberry
Latency has but two sources:
  • Your audio interface
  • Any latent plugins inserted anywhere in the project
 
Short of changing ASIO buffer size or sample-rate, you can't do anything to lower the round-trip latency of your audio interface.  The Babyface is excellent in this regard... so it's not the issue.
 
All major DAW applications have automatic Plugin Delay Compensation (automatic PDC).
If a latent plugin is inserted *anywhere* in the project, ALL other audio is delayed by that amount to maintain sample-accurate sync.  There's a global PDC bypass (button) in Sonar's Control Bar.
You can use this to temporarily disable PDC while tracking... then re-enable PDC when finished tracking.
2014/11/10 11:39:49
robert_e_bone
Many folks have latency issues with laptops, that are caused by the presence of a Wi-Fi adapter for the laptop to access the web.  For some reason, many Wi-Fi adapters cause massive DPC Latency spikes, which cause all kinds of nasty dropouts and such in applications such as Sonar.
 
So, a real easy thing to do is to get the Wi-Fi adapter turned off, through some method, just prior to launching a Sonar session, testing with Sonar, closing Sonar, and then enabling the Wi-Fi adapter again to conclude the test.
 
Some laptops have a little actual switch, by which you can simply turn off the Wi-Fi adapter.  This is the easiest method.  Another way to do it is to go into Windows Device Manager, then find your Wi-Fi adapter and change its status to 'Disable'.  (do not uninstall it, just disable it).  Then after testing things in Sonar, go back into Device Manager and simply change the Wi-Fi adapter's status to 'Enable'.
 
So, please give the above a try and then post back on what happens when you play back or record in Sonar when the Wi-Fi adapter is disabled or turned off.
 
In addition, four other likely places to look for causes of latency in projects in Sonar are: settings, project plugins, audio interface, and/or use of on-board sound.
 
1.  Settings: sometimes, settings can cause latency problems.  Setting the ASIO Buffer Size too high OR too low can cause dropouts and such.  For recording purposes, I have my ASIO Buffer Size set to 128, at 48k for a Sample Rate.  When you switch into the Mixing phase of your project, you will likely start to use more powerful plugins and they will need a bigger ASIO Buffer Size to do their 'thing' (look-ahead processing and/or more CPU intensive).  When I move to mixing a project, I bump my ASIO Buffer Size up to 1024.  For the rest of time, you will go back in and switch ASIO Buffer Size to be either low for recording, or high for mixing/mastering.
 
2.  Loaded Project Plugins.  There are types of plugins that are just not meant to be used during tracking/recording, because of the nature of what they do.  Cakewalk's Boost 11 is an example of one such plugin, as it uses 'look ahead processing' to read the data ahead of it, to know how it needs to process it.  That look-ahead processing cause a big jump in latency, and this plugin should NOT be used until you begin the mixing process.  There are others, from Cakewalk, and from 3rd-party companies.
 
You can quickly test to see if part of your latency issues are caused by one or more of the plugins that are loaded into a given project.  Sonar X3 has a shortcut key, which is the letter 'E' on your computer keyboard, and when you press 'E' Sonar will toggle off/on all loaded plugins in the project - it will cause Sonar to 'Bypass All Plugins'.  So, load up your problem project, start play, and hit 'E' to have Sonar bypass all the loaded plugins, and see if that also makes your dropouts go away.  (after testing, hit 'E' again to tell Sonar to stop the Bypass, so you can hear the effects again).
 
So, IF your dropouts go away with the plugins bypassed, then you KNOW that one or more of your loaded plugins are causing the problem.  MY advice is to temporarily swap out or remove any of the plugins you find to cause dropout issues when tracking, and then when you finish your actual recording, and move onto the mixing phase, THEN you can load up whatever plugins you wish, as long as you also remember to crank up the ASIO Buffer Size to give it enough room to DO things like look-ahead processing, etc...
 
3.  Audio Interface - if you are not using one, you will continue to have lots of trouble with running Sonar with ANY real complexity or even number of tracks in projects.  These range from about $140 - $lots, depending on features and quality of converters and such.  If you DO have an audio interface, make sure you have the latest proven version of drivers and firmware available for the audio interface, and make sure those drivers are expected to work in whatever version of Windows you are running.  Usually, the ASIO drivers are the ones you will want to use, though for some reason some folks on some interfaces use WDM drivers and report better success than with using ASIO.  I believe that percentage of folks is likely pretty small, so I would suggest trying it with the ASIO drivers first.
 
4.  On-Board Sound.  Some folks have audio interfaces, but for some reason still have Sonar pointed to using the computer's on-board sound, rather than the drivers of the audio interface.  I do not know why someone would do that - I do not suggest doing things this way.  Some folks also report that they disable their computer's on-board sound.  I do not myself have any issues with setting Windows to have the Default Audio Device set to go through my on-board sound, OR more likely to the speakers built into my HDTV that I use for a computer display (through the HDMI cable that connects my computer to the 32" HDTV).  Some folks do as I do, and some others have separate computer speakers that the connect to the back of their computers - lots of ways of doing things.  Bottom line is that I recommend having SONAR use the ASIO drivers of a dedicated audio interface.
 
If you have waded through all of the above, I suggest trying to run with settings similar to mine, which are:
 
ASIO Buffer Size: 128 for recording, and 1024 for mixing/mastering
 
Driver Mode in Sonar: ASIO
 
Sample Size (must match between Sonar and audio interface) either 44.1 k or 48 k (yes, I know some others run way higher - I just want to get this person stable first)
 
Bit Depth for Recording: 24-Bit
 
There are also a couple of buffers that changed from what they used to be in prior Sonar versions (used to be 500 ms or 512 ms), and now the default is 250 ms.  I changed my buffers to 500 ms like they used to be 
 
I hope the above helps, and that I haven't had any senior moments and forgot things.  If I did, I am sorry.  I DO need more coffee.
 
Best of luck with you, I will keep an eye out for any posts you respond with.
 
Bob Bone
 
2014/11/10 12:36:42
percepto
Thank you all for your inputs, especially Bob as you helped me a couple of years ago with a similar problem on a different (Lenovo) laptop. (I tried to search for our conversation before posting but it seems to have disappeared!)
In the interest of clarity, I have no projects to compare with on X3, this is literally the first thing I tried after installing everything (I still can't get Addictive Drums to install, always get "can't connect to server" or the install breaks down half way through!)
It is a brand new, custom-built laptop (arrived last week) and I only have Sony Vegas and Sonar installed.
My problem is that I don't use Sonar consistently, so I am constantly having to re-learn stuff. I wrote and produced a song in 2012 (X2) and since then I haven't even opened the program until I upgraded and installed X3.
I bought the fastest laptop my budget would allow (just under 2k solely for music and video editing) as you can see from my specs it should be more than adequate, so, naively I suppose, I expected it to "just work"!
I will review all your responses and give the suggestions a try and see where that leaves me.
Thanks again for all the help.


2014/11/10 15:13:17
Anderton
You'll figure it out. Low latency on a laptop is like a combination lock - all the tumblers have to be in place before it will open.
2014/11/10 15:54:16
Jim Roseberry
The issue with a laptop is that performance compromises *have* to be made to keep heat under control.
You're talking about a super tight space.
Power management, CPU throttling, etc work against you when trying to keep DPC Latency low/consistent (when you're trying to eliminate any hiccups in data flow).
 
To work effectively at low audio latency... you HAVE to get DPC Latency low/consistent.
Any large spikes will cause audio glitches/dropouts...
 
Note that some laptops expose certain BIOS parameters that help get DPC Latency low/consistent.
Others do not...
Some included video cards cause high DPC Latency.
 
DPC Latency is the X-Factor when it comes to laptops
 
2014/11/11 09:24:14
lawajava
Anderton
You'll figure it out. Low latency on a laptop is like a combination lock - all the tumblers have to be in place before it will open.

percepto - a word of encouragement.  I have a laptop, appear to have similar specs.  For me, all works well with next to no latency.  As Bob highlights approaches above, and Craig mentions, you'll get it figured out.  It will work.  Laptops are great for this kind of thing.
2014/11/22 06:31:19
percepto
I finally got around to doing some work and I started by disabling the HD Audio driver.
Without doing anything else it seems to have done the trick!
I've only got a few tracks of midi running (Addictive Drums, Dimension Pro,  TruePianos, Sl-Bass Guitar, Sl-String section, Lounge Lizard) but I'm having no issues at all with input, recording and playback.
My sampling rate is 48k, input 2.1 msec. 103 samples, output 2.3 msec. 111 samples
Total Roundtrip: 4.5 msec. 214 samples.
This looks good right?
I have the 64-bit Double Precision Engine selected (no idea what that does!)
Do I need to change any settings when I start to record audio and/or when I get to the mixing stage?
So far so good, rock solid, stable, and helping me be creative!
Thanks to all.


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