• SONAR
  • RESOLVED: X3c project corruption - AGAIN !!! (p.2)
2013/11/11 14:43:09
Sir Les
Well over clocking will burn out the cpu faster if a fan/cooling goes unchecked when failing...And if overclocking...speed step is unnecessary as this will boost the cpu speed )overclock to a safe level( when not overclocking normally...So what happens when left on, and overclocking?....if it is on...I'd say that is a possible suspect for mayham...also I was told by the sweetwater people that VT in Bios should be turned off for the Avid user of Pro tools 9.0...when I bought in to that mess....So Some things in Bios may be overlooked..that can cause issues, by the faint of heart ....If saving in sonar, and a cpu spike occurs while saving a CWA file...what happens?....In my case with recorded audio, perhaps a anomaly is added in on all armed and recorded tracks...What happens with saving CWA's if same occurs at that same moment in time?
2013/11/11 18:38:29
Sir Les
I think I did send a report once...not sure what got sent...But I had my Nic card working while reading the help, and online info, and some forum posted help, turning off the double 64 bit engine, in a blank profile...and then trying to load the same corrupted file again...and it crashed but gave the option to send a report...which I did do...
Also tried to change the Buffer size of my audio mixer through Sonar x3c, which also crashed the software...
 
So in that instance, the nic card may have also caused a issue in those states.??..but not the first time it happened, as the nic was off when saving the old project through opening it in the update x3c and saving it...As I turn that Nic off when I feel lucky enough to open sonar to do work...when allowable I do get some work done..but if saving a cwa in x3c is unreliable...then what happens when one costumer spends on service and does countless hours of session work, and other mixing tasks...only to see that project and all settings saved trashed....?
 
Well that remains to be seen what is the culprit.....I think I tweaked enough...but there is always something overlooked, so double and triple check ect....when all is all said and done...then finger pointing play comes into it, when calling the hotline I am sure of....at least that has been the constant patterns I've seen in past, since I been doing this PC troubleshooting and asked tech support...and that is a long time now....anyway...try looking into the overclocking boards and ask about cpu speed step implementation or not while overclocking...and see if there are known issues...
 
Good luck
 
Sir Les
2013/11/11 19:29:52
JonD
FreeFlyBertl
 
Yeah, the BIOS is about the last thing that I haven't gone into ... and I'd rather not go there ...
 
From my specs you can see that my system is overclocked, but that was done by a professional about a year ago and tuned to a save level. Worked fine so far, never caused hickups and hence I'm reluctant to go fiddle with BIOS knobs I'm not familiar with, especially as it's just Sonar corrupting its own files, but no other application is behaving funny ...



The way a DAW works is much more complex than your average application (say, MS Word).   A PC can be operating at 40% efficiency and still crank out a perfect Word document.  Not so with a DAW (You'll get clicks, pops, dropouts, file corruptions, etc).
 
And yes, some of the settings in the BIOS can make all the difference in the world.  The simple fact is, if your Sonar X3c is misbehaving while hundreds (thousands?) of other users are working just fine, it's obvious the problem lies with your setup somehow.  Could be a setting, conflict, incompatibility, glitch during an update... You get the idea.  It's never fun to try to narrow it down, but is necessary.
I'd suggest starting with the BIOS.  Find the power management area (look for SpeedStep or C1E) and disable them.  If you don't feel comfortable in the BIOS, come back and we'll try and help you.
2013/11/11 20:05:48
Funkybot
 
This is really something Cakewalk needs to address in X4. I think everyone's experienced one or more corrupt project files in Sonar, and while constantly backing up and versioning can help, it shouldn't happen in the first place IMO. See my post here:
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Exceptionally-frustrating-X3c-experience-m2923620.aspx#2923913
2013/11/11 20:35:39
Anderton
As far as I can tell the majority of people are not reporting corrupted projects, so it's unlikely the software by itself is the problem or there would be many more reports. I've had one corrupted project that I can remember since Sonar 1.0, and was able to recover it so I don't know if that qualifies. At this point we're grasping at straws, but an experience I had with the Mac may be instructive.
 
As we all know, Macs are Perfect and never crash because they are Perfect . But I kept having weird, and extremely intermittent, crashing and file corruption problems. I lived with this because the issue was rare, but every now and then I had to re-install the OS and start over.
 
To make a very long and frustrating story short, someone (it was either here or my SSS forum) suggested checking the RAM. So I checked the RAM, and it was fine.
 
BUT then it was pointed out to me that the only way to REALLY check the RAM on a Mac was via the command-line interface, because otherwise, I'd be using RAM to load the program to check the RAM. Or something like that. So I found a way to test RAM from the Mac's CLI.
 
Son of a gun. One of the RAM sticks had a problem. I replaced it, and my Mac has been working fine ever since. I have since become a proponent of "No, the cheapest RAM you can buy off the internet is not necessarily the best option."
2013/11/11 21:16:16
Splat
This isn't a speedstep or power saving issue, I would expect windows to crash if it were.
Assuming it's the same type of crash in safe mode then it isn't plugins (that is just an assumption however). It could be drivers or firmware (unlikely but needs to be ruled out).

Please try this (even though your drivers may be up to date):
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Driver-Boost-m2928792.aspx

And SFC /SCANNOW in an admin command prompt if you've done everything else as you have said in the original post.

Failing all of this I would recommend an uninstall and reinstall of Sonar and then looking at updating firmware + BIOS.
 
Sidenote:
Are you saving files away from the local hard drive/s?
Please check for errors in the windows event viewer.
Do you get crashes in new projects that have been started in X3. (i.e. haven't been anywhere near X2 or X1 etc...
If you open an existing project, then create a new project in X3, and then copy/paste everything from old project to new project, then use this new project (discard old project).. do the crashes stop happening?
 
Please report back when you've exhausted these possibilities...

Thanks

Alex
2013/11/11 21:25:47
Funkybot
Anderton
As far as I can tell the majority of people are not reporting corrupted projects, so it's unlikely the software by itself is the problem or there would be many more reports. I've had one corrupted project that I can remember since Sonar 1.0, and was able to recover it so I don't know if that qualifies. At this point we're grasping at straws, but an experience I had with the Mac may be instructive.
 
As we all know, Macs are Perfect and never crash because they are Perfect . But I kept having weird, and extremely intermittent, crashing and file corruption problems. I lived with this because the issue was rare, but every now and then I had to re-install the OS and start over.
 
To make a very long and frustrating story short, someone (it was either here or my SSS forum) suggested checking the RAM. So I checked the RAM, and it was fine.
 
BUT then it was pointed out to me that the only way to REALLY check the RAM on a Mac was via the command-line interface, because otherwise, I'd be using RAM to load the program to check the RAM. Or something like that. So I found a way to test RAM from the Mac's CLI.
 
Son of a gun. One of the RAM sticks had a problem. I replaced it, and my Mac has been working fine ever since. I have since become a proponent of "No, the cheapest RAM you can buy off the internet is not necessarily the best option."




Craig, let me just state upfront that the problem is rare, and difficult to reproduce. I've been using Sonar since version 1 and it's happened at one point or another throughout multiple versions of Sonar (most recently with X2) across multiple systems. I'll bet that if you took a poll on these forums and asked "Have you experienced corrupt projects in Sonar" you'll get a larger number of responses than anyone would care for. I can see 3 threads just in the last week that reference corrupt projects. A forum search yields much more results going back years (which lines up with my experiences).
Now with the above said, unless my PC crashed during a save, my hard drive died, or the power was unexpectedly cut, corrupted projects should never happen. Ever. Otherwise, if something is failing in the save routine, Sonar should not commit the save. The save process should first perform a check to make sure the save was successful, THEN commit the changes. If not, display a "Save Failed" error message and don't apply the save, this would at least alert the user to the error and allow them to the necessary action.
 
By just essentially saying "it's got to be bad hardware, it doesn't happen to me" doesn't mean it's a non issue, nor does it mean the problem isn't in Sonar's save routines or project file format. Look at the "loops don't stay in sync unless the metronome is on" thread that you participated in just a few days. It was reported by multiple users, you tried (very much to your credit) to reproduce the issue and couldn't, and suggested that it might be a zero crossing issue. However, if the loops were loosing sync due to a zero crossing issue, then turning on the metronome wouldn't resolve it (and the OP confirmed that it wasn't a zero crossing). So there's clearly something going on here, that's not manifesting itself in all scenarios or systems, but it doesn't mean the hardware is at fault, it just means Sonar's not doing it on your machine. Some software is more "sensitive" to different hardware configurations than others, but that doesn't make the hardware at fault.
 
And finally, as I indicated in my post in the other thread, I've just never had this happen in other DAW software. Maybe that's just luck, but I suspect there's something that can be done under the hood in Sonar to bulletproof the save process. Perhaps just putting something out there on these forums that says "if you have a corrupt project 1) tell us what happened and 2) send us the file" might help diagnose the problem, being that it's so rare and difficult to reproduce. 
 
Just like Noel went in and took a look at the VST code, fixing a lot of bugs to increase stability, it couldn't hurt if someone did the same thing with the save routine. Maybe they'll find bugs, maybe they'll find some way to verify a save was successful before committing it (like a checksum type routine), maybe they'll look at the code with fresh eyes and decide that the CWP file format is a bit outdated and it's time to update the default project file format to a more modern standard (perhaps something XML or .txt based). Then again, maybe they won't find anything. The point is, there's enough anecdotal evidence on this forum to indicate their could be a problem, and the only thing it cost is a few hours of one or more developers' time. Those few hours seem like a worthwhile investment to me.
2013/11/11 21:36:05
Anderton
Agreed that it could definitely be an issue. I didn't say it had to be bad hardware, I said it was unlikely the software by itself was the problem, or the issue would be more prevalent. In other words, if there is indeed a problem, I tend to think it would relate more to how the software interacts with the hardware (or possibly the OS). Although I don't know code, I have done a ton of hardware troubleshooting and software beta testing during my life, and it has always seemed that at least two potentially problematic elements need to be in alignment to cause a problem that is intermittent in nature and when they're not in alignment, the problem doesn't surface.
 
That said, given how similar this sounds to when I had a memory problem with the Mac, I certainly think it's worth checking the memory. Checking RAM is easy and fast, so if that is the problem, there will be much time saved. And if it's not, there won't be much time lost. It's entirely possible that a software bug that surfaces under particular conditions just happens to produce the same results as bad RAM, even though the two may not be related per se.
2013/11/11 21:42:15
Splat
Funkybot you could try what I have suggested?

Regardless whilst your issue appears to have the same symptoms as the OP, the chances of it being exactly the same issue is slim. We could all delve into what our opinions are of what it could be, but the idea here is to rule out what it can't be.


BTW the name of the game is to find a reproducible bug, developers are not psychics or magicians and sadly it would be far more than a "few hours work" without steps to reproduce (needle in haystack assuming there is an actual problem, otherwise it's an invisible needle in a haystack), that's what customers and QA departments are for.
2013/11/11 21:45:49
Splat
BTW if the issue was memory I would expect other weird things to happen as well away from cakewalk and blue screens of death, but mainly BSODS.
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