Anderton
But that's semantics. A program is the entirety of the model. In a rental program, you rent. Obviously this is not a rental program because at its conclusion, you stop "renting" and own the software. The closest you can come to a rental program is to call the monthly payment variation a "rent-to-own" program.

Are you deliberately confusing the issue ?  How is the program different from renting for the first 11 months ?
 
And I think it's great that you can now rent Sonar for a few months.  You should be crying this from the tree tops.
Why aren't you ?

bapu

But if you pay (ONLY) less than 12 months (i.e 1 or 3 or 9 or 11) then it is only a rental as it will revert to demo mode and you do not have at your disposal an unlocked program.

So, to be clear, if a person does not pay the total amount for the program, the program does not work as a fully paid program. Correct?
 
Why should it be otherwise?
 
That is how a lease works.  Don't pay, you got no car. Pay all the payments and experience joy and happiness of ownership.
 
Mortgage works that way too.
 
 

If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?

Don't get it...

Craig, I hope to you all the patience and tolerance of the world.

Paul P

Anderton
But that's semantics. A program is the entirety of the model. In a rental program, you rent. Obviously this is not a rental program because at its conclusion, you stop "renting" and own the software. The closest you can come to a rental program is to call the monthly payment variation a "rent-to-own" program.

Are you deliberately confusing the issue ?  How is the program different from renting for the first 11 months ?

There is a logical fallacy called special pleading where you look at only a selected portion of something to make a point because that particular selection supports the point, but the entirety does not. I think that's what's happening here.
 
"The program" is a model that encompasses more than 11 months. If you want to look at only a selected part of one aspect of the program and not consider that it's designed to last more than 11 months, then it has the appearance of a rental program. But then the 12th month hits, and its true nature of not being a rental program (as the world defines it) becomes obvious. If it was a rental program, then you'd rent for the 12th month, 13th month, etc. 
 
You could say with equal validity that SONAR's model sure looks like giving away software for free because if you download the demo, that's the case for month 1. But at month 2, you discover it is not a model that gives away software for free. Similarly, at month 12, it's obvious the "rental program" is not a rental program, regardless of what it looked like if you consider only a portion of the model.

And I think it's great that you can now rent Sonar for a few months.  You should be crying this from the tree tops.
Why aren't you ? 

Because the overwhelming sentiment in the forums is that people want to own what they buy. This is not a rental program and promoting it as such would be inaccurate. If people want to treat it as such by not following the full model, they can do so but that's not the point. The point is this is about a way to own software, not rent it.

Larry Jones

Brando

What are you talking about? If you stop your membership but reinstate it later, you will get whatever feature that you now decide you want right away - but you need to pay for 12 months ( or buy it outright) to keep it. No different than it has always been.

I'm talking about unknown extras that are offered some time down the road, and are not available to be evaluated at purchase time. I'm talking about having the information necessary to make an informed purchase, or decline to make the purchase. Under the new system I would have to pay to find out what those are, and they will not be included if I reinstate later, meaning I will have to maintain a membership in case something useful is released.
 
FYI, I know there is a difference between core functions and extras. I do use some of the extras that have come with previous versions. In most cases, I bought those versions because of the extras.

Okay... I'm logging in breifly to entertain your concerns because I know you to be a generally reasonable poster and are being mostly reasonable with yoru concerns here (unlike others who... well IDK what the heck they want aside from a complete rimmo from the Bakers).
 
This is a long thread so you probably missed it but I think my interaction with Andrew yesterday will probably explain the purpose behind one of your concerns but first...
 
You actually will know what is upcoming in the next couple months by viewing this page...
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Up-Next#start
 
However some of what is presented there may be included in the core bundle anyway so even if you lapse then reup you may still get it. Hard to say. For stuff that isn't (which from my impressions thus far will be more akin to the old X2 Content Club which was more grab bag items). I made a suggestion that for items like that that will be missed out on by users who lapse that maybe they could offer those products in the store for a PREMIUM price (meaning it would cost more to snag them a la carte after the fact to avoid undermining the business model).
 
There is unfortunately no way to know what might be coming down the pipe in month 6 or 8 or 12 because I'm assuming the Bakers won't even know right away. These are things that would have been included in the next point version upgrade in the old model (ie: x3 vs. x4) so we never knew that info anyway until the release was announced. It is fair to be wary because back then you were paying AFTER the fact and it will be up to Cake to prove themselves worthy BUT you won't miss out on anything truly important because that type of thing will be included once you re-up. Also if somehow it IS something really cool that is produced by Cake (like let's say they decided to toss in the Concrete Limiter one month or some new PC module that doesn't get included upon re-upping) since that kind of thing is in house production it will likely be posted in the Cake store anyway. I'd imagine things that would be missed out on are more third party goodies or upgrades (like maybe they'll make a deal with Overloud for a new offering of theirs or allow you to upgrade to a full version of TH2 or something). Those types of things can be acquired from the companies anyway. So in all likelihood if there is something they include that you absolutely MUST have but you miss it chances are you will be able to acquire it some other way.
 
Now this was part of the discussion I was having with Andrew (which actually just a quick 2 post interaction if you can call that a discussion). I was asking about whether there was some kind of time limit before our upgrade status expires and we would then have to pay more. For example... As an X1 Pro owner I qualified for the upgrade to X2 Pro for less than everyone else. If I did that then I qualified for the lowest upgrade price to X3. If I did NOT upgrade to X2 then I would have had to pay the "I own an older version of Sonar" upgrade price (because I only owned X1). That IIRC was a $100 difference in price. So my question was how long do I, as an X3 Producer owner, have to upgrade to Sonar Platinum at the $200 upgrade price for my tier level? I expected maybe the answer would be one year to follow the old system. Even in that scenario I could NOT upgrade for a full year from now and get the current version being released (so that is point upgrade 1... essentially X4), then get everything they release this year (which would be "X5" in the old model although I wouldn't get to use it until next year) and THEN still get another 12 months of upgrades (X6) all for that single upgrade price of $200. So three whole years of versions for the price of one upgrade.
 
To me that made NO business sense whatsoever and as I said I assumed there would be some kind of cut off point before you drop an upgrade tier. Apparently not. That is EXACTLY what I could do and although I'm sure Cake would prefer I wouldn't that is supposedly how this is built.
 
So how does this benefit them? Well the answer was simple. Their way to get you to stay on board and stay current with your membership is to make that membership WORTH it. That means THEY will have to haul butt. This model HEAVILY benefits the end user and gives them far more options than the old method. The only trick Cake has up their sleeve is that those little extra content goodies will make you want to stay subscribed... so you know they better be good. If not they shoot THEMSELVES in the foot. But they can't do this by holding back core functions or a robust featureset because that would bork the program and make potential new users not want to buy in. Honestly I feel they almost painted themselves into a serious corner here but hey... if they are confident enough to in their product to make this work then damn... that makes me pretty confident this is going to be pretty spectacular... and I'm a brutal pessimist in general.
 
So basically would you miss out on something? Yeah but if you do then a) it is likely it won't be something that will hinder your experience with the program, b) you may be able to snag it anyway but you'll just have to pay full price for it because you didn't take advantage of full membership (which is the point of membership) and/or c) you should have stayed signed up because that is really the ONLY thing Cake is trying to get you to do for this unheard of level of leniency in regards to the program costs for current Sonar owners.
 
I've been saying for the past couple days since the announcement that this is essentially a trust based model (you basically trust Cake or you don't) but now after knowing more of the facts about how this works I still think it is trust based but to think this is a bad deal that is putting you at some sort of risk then you have less trust for Cakewalk than a crackhead with no pants and a looted TV in his hands. At which point you gotta ask yourself... why would ever buy anything Cakewalk would put out?
 
Even then it is all moot because you can just sign up month to month and if you aren't seeing them produce after a couple months then you cancel and your out $40. If you see promise keep paying them for the rest of the 12 month period or pay upfront for the next 12 months and you keep everything.
 
Or of course you can just sit back, pay nothing, watch the program develop and grow and buy in whenever you want and get EVERYTHING (except those extra goodies that you can probably get elsewhere anyway or do without) for one price.
 
I simply do not see the problem with any of this. I seriously think the Bakers are insane or have huge brass balls to stake their entire business on this model. The latter would imply that shiz is going to be REALLY awesome and they know it. I know X3 is brilliant. I know the other forums have been completely abuzz about it. I know they have big money backing. I see crazy awesome development. I say (in my most Canadian accent evar) Freakin' give 'er, buddies!

TabSel
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?

Don't get it...

This IS X3. They are using X3 as the foundation for these versions and expanding on it. It is very obvious that they are doing exactly what you just said... captilizing on a major success.
 
Seriously, dude. You've been trying to crap all over this for 24 hours (or more) now. If you don't like it don't buy in. Everybody has listened to your concerns, you've gotten tons of feedback. If you are still unhappy then I do not think you ever will be. Maybe just sit back for a while and watch how it all plays out and maybe you will end up liking it.
 
Trust me... if they screw it up, despite my enthusiasm at the moment, I have no problems walking away from Cake. I was going to do it after X2 but X3 came along and I'm a rabid fan now.
 

Beepster
I seriously think the Bakers are insane or have huge brass balls to stake their entire business on this model.

We've always be able to buy the current version for a fraction of the price if we waited long enough.  A while back you could upgrade from X2 to X3 producer for less that 60$.  That's the same as the new system in which you wait three years then pay 200$.
 

brconflict

nzpaul
I'm sold - I think it's going to be brilliant
 
I've pre-purchased my copy now (X3 producer to Platinum)  from JRR for $125.16 (with the GROUP 16% off code)

Thanks for the tip! A "groupbuyauto" discount is still in play. I can digest that cost. But my expectations just went up. 

Now THAT's what I was waiting for!!!!  Thank you for that.
 
PS: I've been using Adobe Creative Cloud and Orifice 365 on the subscription models going on 2 years. I definitely save money and get to use them on more than one computer (with Office 365 on 5!). I do NOT have to be connected to the Internet after the installs, although I usually am generally connected except when doing music or video (I have a profile that kills everything that even remotely (no pun intended) might affect recording. listening or watching. I actually welcome Sonar embracing this model as I generally upgrade right away to the next version. As long as everything is backward compatible with Producer X-3 I should have no worries with new releases and patches (I would think based on prior experience). I have had no real problems with X3e except for the AVOX4 fiasco which I don't attribute to Cakewalk and was fixed in the X3-c patch. There is no greater credibility and integrity in this business than Craig Anderton and also Gibson, again based on my almost 30+ years of experience with them and Cakewalk since it was 12-Tone Systems and Cakewalk 1.0 in 1987. I still have the original floppies and the Voyetra MPU-401 MIDI Card From Turtle Beach which I got for Texture in 1984. (Hello Craig!). In almost 30 years I have had close to ZERO issues with Cakewalk products and Tech-Support. I have not had to call them in at least ten years!
 
FWIW: I don't think I have ever seen a busier (and redundant?) thread in my life. I have been lurking but thanks to the JRR group buy post (A SPECIAL THANK YOU) all my questions are answered. Thank you all, except for you know who! I would say that poster is a "wrong note" but there's no such thing as a wrong note! (And even if there were, the right one is just a half-step away).
 
 
 

TabSel
If X3 ever was so successful as you said Craig, why change? Why discontinue the success, have happy loyal customers and build upon and grow your good reputation and gain new customers by that, In contrast to upsetting loyal und scare potential new customers?

Don't get it...

That doesn't make sense. Nothing has been taken away. Meaning you can continue to pay just like you could for the last decade or two - you pay upfront for full software (license) ownership.
 
What has changed is that you can now also choose to do it differently if that works better for you. If anything this would make Sonar more successful because people that would otherwise not have been able to pay the full amount upfront, now have an option to pay in a more convenient way.
 
Now if CW actually removed the option to pay upfront, then you have a point. Otherwise CW isn't "upsetting loyal customers" in any way that makes any sense to me at least.