• SONAR
  • Introducing the new SONAR: New lineup, new features, plus membership (p.82)
2015/01/15 13:04:37
Beepster
cparmerlee
Beepster
rfreeze
Are the 12 month periods set, or do they start/end randomly based on when each user buys in? 
 
I ask, because in my mind random would keep the Baker's marketing guys from dangling carrots on the other side of the line.  This would give me more confidence in the continuous nature of the advertised feature release process.
 
 


The 12 months starts the day you buy in and ends 12 months later so the idea is a perpetually dangling carrot. You can see what's coming up next on one of the Cake pages but I don't currently have the link open to post it. Right now it is showing a drum replacement tool, some FX chain thingies and something else that I'm forgetting right now.


Rfreeze makes an interesting point.  In the familiar model, Cakewalk (and most other companies) begin working in earnest on a new release after the most recent release is stabilized   (I realize there is some overlap, but the basic model is true.)  And this drives a natural development and marketing cycle that tends to be somewhere in the 1-2 year range between releases.  That does cause revenues to be very "lumpy" which might be a problem for some companies.
 
With the model that Cake is trying to present, there wouldn't be such discretely defined release cycles and they surely hope to make the income less lumpy.  But modern software development still favors major releases, especially for products as complex as SONAR.  For them to make the subscriptions continuous beyond the first 12-month free period, they will have to do at least minor releases to the core product before that 12 months is up.  otherwise, people will correctly conclude that nothing really has changed and the subscription plan is just an opaque way to raise prices.
 
I take the company at their word that they really do want to change the actual pattern of delivery and this is not just a marketing tactic.  They have 12 months to demonstrate that.




Yes. This will be a trust based system and as I was saying in the CH yesterday I think if you trust Cake (and they prove worthy of that trust) it'll work. If you're a paranoid skeptic (which I usually am but not so much with Cake) then it won't.
 
Still though at this very moment I'd say they've added enough cool stuff to make the initial buy in right now worth it. It is essentially X4 with whatever drops down the pipe in the next 12 months... which in the old pardigm would be X5.
 
The Bakers will have to hustle though to retain trust which they seem more than enthusiastic about so I'm getting a good vibe about it. I do also get the feeling they MAY (or more likely Gibson) had been wanting to make it solely a subscription model a la Adobe but the backlash to the survey question was too severe. So now we get the best of both worlds.
 
I think if they continue making it more useful to rock/guitar dinosaurs like me as they have been but also start focusing on adding things to please the EDM/Ableton/FL crowd they could really dominate the market. I used to do some security type stuff for dance hall type parties and knowing a lot of how those guys roll they're into the whole "drop cash to sustain as you need to to maintain the lifestyle/image" so monthly scripts would likely be a boon in that regard IF they made the program a little more DJ friendly. A stereotype perhaps but it's what I saw. Most of those dudes would rent their flashy tables and gear, borrow records, whatever so I could easily see them just wanting to snag a program for a month for gigs without dropping a whole wad all at once.
2015/01/15 13:10:12
Bonkwell
scook
It is this bundle http://www.xlnaudio.com/products/bundle/producer_bundle which is downloaded directly from XLN. It is not locked to SONAR.




WoW .........  many thanks, much appreciated.
2015/01/15 13:12:36
brconflict
Beepster
brconflict
I meant to ask earlier, and it certainly helps me decide, but is there a Release Notes doc for the new version(s)? I'd like to see a list of fixes/improvements, and new features. The video is not very revealing. Thanks!




Not exactly release notes but there is this...
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
 
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.


From what I see in the versions, it appears my upgrade path should be from X3 Producer to Sonar Professional. Only, I want the TS64 Transient Shaper. If I could get Professional and the Transient Shaper coming from X3, I might bite. It almost seems the $499 Platinum price is a mis-print. I can't find what the huge value difference is, other than plug-ins.


But I certainly want to see if anything in Take Lanes was addressed. This is still an area I have numerous odd things happening and some gripes I have, but small potatoes to other features/improvements CW is rallying behind.
 
If Take Lanes were left alone, I'm just fine sticking with X3 for free.
 
2015/01/15 13:17:48
Beepster
brconflict
Beepster
brconflict
I meant to ask earlier, and it certainly helps me decide, but is there a Release Notes doc for the new version(s)? I'd like to see a list of fixes/improvements, and new features. The video is not very revealing. Thanks!




Not exactly release notes but there is this...
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
 
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.


From what I see in the versions, it appears my upgrade path should be from X3 Producer to Sonar Professional. Only, I want the TS64 Transient Shaper. If I could get Professional and the Transient Shaper coming from X3, I might bite. It almost seems the $499 Platinum price is a mis-print. I can't find what the huge value difference is, other than plug-ins.


But I certainly want to see if anything in Take Lanes was addressed. This is still an area I have numerous odd things happening and some gripes I have, but small potatoes to other features/improvements CW is rallying behind.
 
If Take Lanes were left alone, I'm just fine sticking with X3 for free.
 




AFAIK you can use all the old tools from your previous versions in Professional and Platinum and aside from the Prochannel stuff (because it does not exist in Artist) you should be able to use everything in Artist as well.
 
But if you own X3 Pro your upgrade price to Platinum is not $499. It is $149 for the intro period and then it will go up to $199. $499 is for brand new customers.
2015/01/15 13:21:19
Beepster
Oh and Take Lanes appear to be unchanged as far as workflow but I'm assuming they've fixed some of the last remaining glitches with them (I hope).
2015/01/15 13:23:34
Atsuko
SteveStrummerUK
 
Anderton
 
But remember, the big advantage compared to Adobe is you get to keep stuff. If you want to upgrade, you upgrade. If you don't, you don't but you still get to keep what you paid for.




Craig, with the greatest respect, and with apologies for quoting you slightly out of context, as I detailed in THIS POST, there is also a distinct disadvantage compared to the Adobe model that (obviously) is never being mentioned by you and others in this thread.
 
Taking up an Adobe Subscription Plan doesn't require any initial purchase of a software licence. A new subscriber simply starts paying the same as everyone else, regardless of their previous loyalty or which versions they already own. There is no tiered payment structure for identical products, and there is no requirement to pay a 'fee' to join.
 
I recently subscribed to the Adobe Photography Plan (Photoshop CC + Lightroom 5) as a new user, and I pay the same as everyone else. A new user to the Cakewalk plan being rolled out still has to buy the software licence for $499, which is basically what you keep when you pay a year up front or complete 12 consecutive monthly payments.
 
As I said in the post I linked to, either model can be argued to be better or worse than the other - that's not the point I'm making. What I am saying is that making any comparisons to the Adobe modus operandi, when it's only mentioned that their model doesn't allow you to continue to use the software if you stop subscribing, is slightly disingenuous because it's never mentioned that you don't get to keep the software (i.e. continue to use the licence) because you weren't obliged to purchase it in the first place.
 
I actually subscribed to the Photography Plan precisely because I didn't have to initially shell out five or six hundred dollars in the first place. Yes, I know I have to keep subscribing to be able to use the products, but I did all the calculations and worked out that was a better deal for me long term than upgrading Lightroom 5 (which I do own) or continuing to struggle with Photoshop Elements.
 
 
 


The difference is that you'll never own the software, OTH, if you pay 12 months or the up front price, you'll own Sonar forever.
2015/01/15 13:24:59
dwardzala
Beepster
And I know this has already been mentioned but for those extra content type goodies that get missed out on by those who let their membership lapse it would be nice if they were made available as extra add ons in the store... at a premium cost of course so as not to defeat the purpose of membership. Like let's say the Drum Replacement tool is something that is not part of the main program but I miss it and need it I could then pay X amount of dollars to buy it in the store. Of course, as I said, at a premium that would discourage A La Carte style abuse of what is starting to look like an honor/trust based system between Cake and the consumer (which I think is cool BTW just for the sheer FU to the traditional norms of modern corporate shenanigans).


I think the intent is that functionality (like drum replacement if I understand it correctly, or vocal sync) that is native to Sonar would be included in latest update that you would get when you re-up.


I think its things like PC modules loops, or presets, etc. that would not be included in the latest update if they were released when you weren't enrolled.
2015/01/15 13:32:16
SteveStrummerUK
Atsuko
SteveStrummerUK
 
Anderton
 
But remember, the big advantage compared to Adobe is you get to keep stuff. If you want to upgrade, you upgrade. If you don't, you don't but you still get to keep what you paid for.




Craig, with the greatest respect, and with apologies for quoting you slightly out of context, as I detailed in THIS POST, there is also a distinct disadvantage compared to the Adobe model that (obviously) is never being mentioned by you and others in this thread.
 
Taking up an Adobe Subscription Plan doesn't require any initial purchase of a software licence. A new subscriber simply starts paying the same as everyone else, regardless of their previous loyalty or which versions they already own. There is no tiered payment structure for identical products, and there is no requirement to pay a 'fee' to join.
 
I recently subscribed to the Adobe Photography Plan (Photoshop CC + Lightroom 5) as a new user, and I pay the same as everyone else. A new user to the Cakewalk plan being rolled out still has to buy the software licence for $499, which is basically what you keep when you pay a year up front or complete 12 consecutive monthly payments.
 
As I said in the post I linked to, either model can be argued to be better or worse than the other - that's not the point I'm making. What I am saying is that making any comparisons to the Adobe modus operandi, when it's only mentioned that their model doesn't allow you to continue to use the software if you stop subscribing, is slightly disingenuous because it's never mentioned that you don't get to keep the software (i.e. continue to use the licence) because you weren't obliged to purchase it in the first place.
 
I actually subscribed to the Photography Plan precisely because I didn't have to initially shell out five or six hundred dollars in the first place. Yes, I know I have to keep subscribing to be able to use the products, but I did all the calculations and worked out that was a better deal for me long term than upgrading Lightroom 5 (which I do own) or continuing to struggle with Photoshop Elements.
 
 
 


The difference is that you'll never own the software, OTH, if you pay 12 months or the up front price, you'll own Sonar forever.




Did you actually read my post?
 
To summarise, you don't own the licence of one of the Adobe CC products because you are never obliged to purchase that licence in the first place. There is, to use my example with Cakewalk SONAR Platinum, no $499 'entry fee' when you first sign up to Adobe.
 
If a new user to SONAR could immediately start paying $149/$199 per annum, you would have a fair comparison.
 
2015/01/15 13:41:23
Atsuko
SteveStrummerUK
Atsuko
SteveStrummerUK
 
Anderton
 
But remember, the big advantage compared to Adobe is you get to keep stuff. If you want to upgrade, you upgrade. If you don't, you don't but you still get to keep what you paid for.




Craig, with the greatest respect, and with apologies for quoting you slightly out of context, as I detailed in THIS POST, there is also a distinct disadvantage compared to the Adobe model that (obviously) is never being mentioned by you and others in this thread.
 
Taking up an Adobe Subscription Plan doesn't require any initial purchase of a software licence. A new subscriber simply starts paying the same as everyone else, regardless of their previous loyalty or which versions they already own. There is no tiered payment structure for identical products, and there is no requirement to pay a 'fee' to join.
 
I recently subscribed to the Adobe Photography Plan (Photoshop CC + Lightroom 5) as a new user, and I pay the same as everyone else. A new user to the Cakewalk plan being rolled out still has to buy the software licence for $499, which is basically what you keep when you pay a year up front or complete 12 consecutive monthly payments.
 
As I said in the post I linked to, either model can be argued to be better or worse than the other - that's not the point I'm making. What I am saying is that making any comparisons to the Adobe modus operandi, when it's only mentioned that their model doesn't allow you to continue to use the software if you stop subscribing, is slightly disingenuous because it's never mentioned that you don't get to keep the software (i.e. continue to use the licence) because you weren't obliged to purchase it in the first place.
 
I actually subscribed to the Photography Plan precisely because I didn't have to initially shell out five or six hundred dollars in the first place. Yes, I know I have to keep subscribing to be able to use the products, but I did all the calculations and worked out that was a better deal for me long term than upgrading Lightroom 5 (which I do own) or continuing to struggle with Photoshop Elements.
 
 
 


The difference is that you'll never own the software, OTH, if you pay 12 months or the up front price, you'll own Sonar forever.




Did you actually read my post?
 
To summarise, you don't own the licence of one of the Adobe CC products because you are never obliged to purchase that licence in the first place. There is, to use my example with Cakewalk SONAR Platinum, no $499 'entry fee' when you first sign up to Adobe.
 
If a new user to SONAR could immediately start paying $149/$199 per annum, you would have a fair comparison.
 


Sorry if I misunterstood.  Anyway, you're also aren't obliged to pay $499; you can pay $49.99 x 12 months for the platinum version, when this period finishes you own the software and can renew for $199 or 12 x $19.99.  Adobe has different subscription prices also for the tools you choose.  Of course you already know that.
2015/01/15 13:46:40
brconflict
Beepster
brconflict
Beepster
brconflict
I meant to ask earlier, and it certainly helps me decide, but is there a Release Notes doc for the new version(s)? I'd like to see a list of fixes/improvements, and new features. The video is not very revealing. Thanks!




Not exactly release notes but there is this...
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation?product=SONAR&language=3&help=NewFeatures.01.html
 
No list of bug fixes there. Just the documentation on the new features.


From what I see in the versions, it appears my upgrade path should be from X3 Producer to Sonar Professional. Only, I want the TS64 Transient Shaper. If I could get Professional and the Transient Shaper coming from X3, I might bite. It almost seems the $499 Platinum price is a mis-print. I can't find what the huge value difference is, other than plug-ins.


But I certainly want to see if anything in Take Lanes was addressed. This is still an area I have numerous odd things happening and some gripes I have, but small potatoes to other features/improvements CW is rallying behind.
 
If Take Lanes were left alone, I'm just fine sticking with X3 for free.
 




AFAIK you can use all the old tools from your previous versions in Professional and Platinum and aside from the Prochannel stuff (because it does not exist in Artist) you should be able to use everything in Artist as well.
 
But if you own X3 Pro your upgrade price to Platinum is not $499. It is $149 for the intro period and then it will go up to $199. $499 is for brand new customers.


Yeah, even for $149 from X3, I just didn't see much (other than the dynamic Sends and FX bins, which I love to see) reason to upgrade. Although I personally wasn't impressed by much in this upgrade (just not much that makes what I do any easier, really), there's some features in here many will absolutely love. So, you outsiders reading this, Sonar x3 marked a significant improvement in stability, and it's by far the best I've used since X1. I'm certain the upcoming release will be even better. Sonar has been the most intuitive DAW I've used (well, aside from Garage Band, which doesn't do a whole lot).
 
Anyway, reason behind asking what's been fixed/tweaked to be more reliable or efficient was because many of the new features don't really apply to me. I'm looking for other good reasons to upgrade.
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