Sonar Crashes
 
Hello.  Sorry in advance for the long post.  I am running Sonar X2a (64 bit) in Win 7 SP1 x64.  For a year now (since buying Sonar X2 summer '13) I have been having a problem with intermittent computer crashes when using Sonar.
 
The Crashes.  Intermittently, when I use Sonar, the computer will freeze up – the graphic display freezes, and the computer no longer responses to mouse or keyboard activity.  The computer will not respond to Ctrl-Alt-Delete.  To regain control of the computer, I must hold the power button to hard-stop the computer, and then re-start it.  Because these crashes bring down the OS, there is no error log recorded; WhatIsHang records no problems.  I can sort of reliably cause a crash problem by starting the computer, launching Sonar, load up a project, and then walk away from the computer.  When I return to the computer after 60 minutes or so, typically the computer is crashed/frozen.  So I get crashes/freezing just simply by having Sonar up and running on the computer; I don't even have to interact with Sonar to get crashes/freezing.  I also get crashes/freezing when recording, playing back, and editing audio or midi data, and while doing other work in Sonar.
 
Additionally, I also have occasional brief static bursts when using Sonar.  Sometimes, when starting playback of a project for the first time after loading it in Sonar, I get a brief (very brief: 10 ms) burst of soft white noise.  I do not get static during playback of audio; only when I first start playback, and typically only the first time I start playback at the start of the project.  The other day, I got a similar static burst after double clicking an audio clip to launch the Loop Construction view.  Sometimes, I get a static burst after applying a change in the Edit – Preferences menu.
 
The crashing/freezing problem sounds like a computer hardware problem, and I have done a good deal of trouble-shooting to try and figure out what is causing this (see below).  Over the past couple of months, I have been running Cuckos Reaper  - I thought I would try Reaper because the demo version has all the functions of the full version, and the demo allows 60 days to try it out – a good long test period.  During the past 45-50 days I have been testing Reaper, I have experienced 5 crashes/freezes while running Sonar, and zero crashes/freezing when running Reaper (what I do is use Sonar on one day and Reaper the next – alternating).  So, same computer, same hardware, same midi and audio interface, same set of drivers, and crashes when using Sonar and no crashes when using Reaper.  This tells me that the computer and the hardware and drivers all work fine, and Sonar is the cause of the crashes.  Indeed, the computer runs fine without any crashes so long as I am not using Sonar.  The crashes/freezes ONLY occur when using Sonar.   So far, I have heard no static bursts when using Reaper.
 
I am hoping you can help me make Sonar run more reliably with no crashes/freezing.  Any ideas?
 
What I have done to try to resolve this:

1. Updated Sonar X2 with the latest update
   
2. Updated Win 7 with latest patches/updates
   
3. Updated drivers for audio and midi interfaces to the latest drivers available
   
4. Updated the bios to the latest version.
   
5. Updated all MOBO drivers to the latest version
   
6. Re-built the entire software environment by formatting all HDs, re-installing the OS and re-installing programs (making sure each installer was “run as Administrator”).
   
7. Put in a new Siig DP FW card (with TI XIO2200AZGW chipset)
   
8. Ran MemTest+86 (ver. 5.01) for two complete cycles.  Zero errors were reported.  (Note also that this process took 4+ hours, and the computer did not crash during this time.)
   
9. Because intermittent computer crashes are commonly caused by memory problems, I also swapped out my memory modules.  My computer has two memory modules, and I got the same crashing/freezing behavior using both memory modules and with any one of the memory modules.
   
10. Monitoring CPU and MOBO temperatures: the CPU temperatures stays round 36-37oC – well within normal operating tolerances; the MOBO temperatures are a little cooler, and also well within normal operating tolerances.
     
    

The Computer
 
I built the DAW specifically to run Win 7 and Sonar X2.  The computer has no other functions, and is not online or networked.  The specs are as follows:
 
Processor – Intel i5 3570 quad core @ 3.40 gHz (normal clock – NOT overclocked)
MOBO – ASUS P8Z77-VLX w/ Intel Northbridge Z77 Express chipset
Memeory - 2 x Corsair Vengence CMZ16GX3M2A1600C10B (2 modules of 8 GB apiece: total 16 GB), DDR3 Power - Corsair CMPSU-750TXV2, 750 watts Firewire – Siig DP FireWire 2-port PCIe card
Drives - Seagate ST500DM002 Barracuda 500 GB, SATA 7200 rpm HDs OS - Win 7 Home Premium 64 bit, SP-1 Cakewalk - Sonar X2a (I believe I have all Sonar X2 updates installed)
Audio Interface – Mackie Onyx 1604 w/ firewire card installed (driver ver. 1.7 installed – is the only driver version Mackie makes for this device and this OS)
MIDI Interface – MOTU Micro Express USB midi interface (Motu “universal” driver installed – is the only driver version Motu makes for this device and this OS).
 
Note: this computer has no VGA card. All graphic functions are handled by the CPU itself.
  
Thanks for your help.

Definitely a hardware or driver issue, or fault with the OS.
 
Sonar will not freeze your machine even with buggy code within the app itself. All it will do is crash it will not bring down the OS.
 
Sonar however may be calling the third party buggy code that freezes your machine (something Reaper might not be doing). If Reaper is not crashing the machine hunch is an issue with either hardware/drivers for the interface or firewire card.
 
What does the windows event viewer say?
 
Anyway stuff to do/check:

Check here:
http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/detect
 
Try turning off intel speedstep/core parking... Google for details..
In fact a recent thread here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Disabling-Core-Parkingit-helped-me-m3158875.aspx
 
Also ...
 
Check for firmware updates (if they exist) on:
The hard drives
The mouse (rare but some drivers may have it).
The firewire card (check that you are using latest drivers, try windows firewire legacy driver as well as an experiment).
Try an external display adapter.
Look towards a more powerful PSU and possibly run tests for a faulty CPU.
 
Oh and also try renaming AUD.INI in Sonar, oh and are you running a virus scanner?..
 
These sort of issues can be very hard to fix...
 
Cheers..

Hello.  Thanks for your reply.
 
The crashes bring down the OS entirely - hence the Win Event log never records any thing about these crashes.
 
I have sent an email to the CW Tech Support team, but the online form only allows some many characters so I can't include all the details for them that I included here.
 
Because the audio computer is not online, I have not installed any third-party anti-virus software on the computer.
 
I will follow-up with the links and suggestions you provided. 
 
 

>  hence the Win Event log never records any thing about these crashes.
 
Yup definitely hardware/drivers/or low level OS call.
 
> Because the audio computer is not online, I have not installed any third-party anti-virus software on the computer.
 
In that case as a precaution you should also do a malware scan and antivirus scan, just because it isn't online doesn't mean it could not get infected...
 
If you are offline also make sure all network adapters are disabled not just unplugged. Update your network adapter drivers as well (even though you might not be using it).
 
Cheers...

Hello.  Let us be accurate: there is NO problem with the computer hardware, drivers, or OS when using Reaper, Sound Forge, NI Komplete (in stand-alone mode), or any of the other audio software I use.
 
The ONLY problem with the computer hardware, drivers, or OS is when Sonar is running.
 
So the problem may well be with Sonar's interaction with the computer's hardware, drivers, or OS.  But the computer hardware, drivers, OS, all work just fine when using software other than Sonar. 

Agreed...and just because other software may work does not necessarily mean it isn't a driver or hardware issue. Regardless Sonar itself will not freeze your system.

Good luck keep us updated with your findings...
You may also want to trial platinum when the demo comes out.

Couple of thoughts:
 
1.  IF you have the Windows Default Audio Device set to point to your ASIO drivers of your audio interface, you may be experiencing a driver conflict, as ASIO can wig out when more than one application goes after it - even the playing of Windows sounds, like when applications start and that sort of thing, can cause this conflict.  Lots of folks also run with Windows sounds turned off, so that they don't come blaring through the speakers, as far as I am aware.  So, if you DO have Windows set to point to your interface, try changing that back to point so speakers for a test - even if you don't at the moment have PC speakers available and hooked up, this is just to eliminate that sort of conflict as part of the evaluation of the issues.
 
2.  After the above, you might consider another test - just trying to get Sonar up and running without your audio interface present - again, just to rule it out.  So, with your computer shut down, physically remove the interface card from the computer, then start it up and try going into Sonar.  Of course, Sonar will complain about the lack of the interface being present, but that's OK - we just want to get Sonar up and running.  So, please try this test and post back the results.
 
I have to run a quick errand, and will look at this in more depth when I return in about an hour.
 
Bob Bone
 
 

Hello.  Thanks RE Bone for your reply.
 
1. I am using ASIO drivers for the audio interface.  I have Windows sounds set to "No Sounds".  The Mackie interface is set in Windows as the default audio device.  Are you suggesting to make some other audio device the default device?
 
2. Were it only that simple.  The crashes/freezes I experience are intermittent and irregular.  As I said in the original post above, I've had 5 crash/freezes in the past 45-50 days of using Sonar, and zero crashes using Reaper.  So I can go and remove the audio device, and start up Sonar, and have no problems whatsoever.  What I would need to do is disconnect the audio interface and then use Sonar for a week or so to see if I still get crashes.
 
So yes, Sonar will get up and running when the audio interface is disconnected.  And Sonar will get up and running with the audio interface connected.
 
Besides, on my machine, Reaper records and plays back audio without the crashes that I have with Sonar.  And if push comes to shove, and Sonar x2 absolutely cannot function with the Mackie device I use (16 channel mixer with audio interface install - a central and expensive part of my studio), it makes much more sense for me to stop using Sonar instead of getting a new audio interface.
 
A few years back, CW listed the Mackie interfaces as suitable for CW products.  My Mackie interface is now one generation old, and I don't know if CW bothers testing older audio devices like mine.  As far as I can figure out, the computer hardware and audio interface are all approved by CW.

Bob has a good point with (1). Point it away from the interface you use with Sonar if you can even if it is set to no sounds.

In regards to point (2) it's only for testing purposes. If you can do without for a while then great..

When googling for solutions I see this is the second byte of the cherry:
http://forum.cakewalk.com...aspx?m=3127060&p=1


Did you ever try another display adapter?

Cheers..

You should really try a newer version of Sonar first. X2 was not stable as far as I could tell by what was common questions and complaints, like yours, on the forum before X3 came out. I stayed with 8.5 because of what I was reading about x1 and 2. 
X3e is super stable. And I would hope the new version even more so. 
I'm not sure if there's a demo for X3 still available while we wait for the Platinum demo to be released. Upgrading is well worth the money because of all the extra goodies you get now. 
I'm going with professional because it's better bang for the buck.