• SONAR
  • Two Posts And A Mug Full of Hater-aid (p.7)
2015/01/23 12:57:56
denverdrummer
LRR,
I get where you're coming from.  What you seem to be missing is that the price of the program is the price of the program.  You get a bit of a price brake if you pay up front, but other than that, you have to pay for the price of the license.  If you want to sell them on Pro or Platinum, great, but you should tell them that's what it's going to cost.
 
This is from the FAQ:
 

If I choose Monthly Membership payments, can I cancel before 12 Months?
Yes, but 12 consecutive monthly payments are required to permanently activate SONAR and any updates you have received. If you cancel payment or don’t pay for at least 12 months, SONAR will revert to demo mode. This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo. Once you resume payments, you can make new edits and save them.

 
So if I'm reading this right, if they miss a month they can resume later and pick back up where they were.  And they can still open projects in demo mode, they just can't save or make changes, until they resume payments.
 
From the responses you've gotten from the bakers, I think they are trying to provide alternatives, but you seem to just want  a free program for your client, or one that is 100% functional if they pay or not.  That's not fair to those paying the full price up front, or making timely payments.
 
The bottom line here is you want something that is not offered, and won't be offered.  There have been suggestions for alternatives.  But the fact is no other DAW offers this choice.
2015/01/23 14:17:09
Beepster
Living Room Rocker
Hey, Beep and Randy, within your own post I hope you see just how I felt when I made my initial post (which still has not been addressed as posted).  Nonetheless, Beep, I do appreciate our discussion and, in particularly, that you had my back.  That was really swell of you.  I apologies for this late response, but I really had to get back to work and I rarely spend much time on forums as it is.  Just as you did, I hope others consider who the person is when responding and singling she/he out (rather than "ganging up"). 
 
So I hope addressed everyone even if I have not replied personally to each one here.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker




Well I appreciate your follow up. I do still think you are creating some very unique and odd scenarios that really wouldn't affect most users and were not better served by the old model. In fact the scenarios you present would be much more workable under the new model but the user would have to be VERY cautious to keep up on their payments. That's unfortunately just the reality of any "leasing, rent to own, credit, etc" type plans. It gives people the opportunity to have access to stuff they normally wouldn't but it does come with responsibility and a certain level of risk.
 
As far as poor musicians... well hey, man. You are talking to probably the most destitute person on the forum. I don't expect Cake to lower their prices just to appease me (although during the X2 fiasco I was really mad because I was left with a REALLY messed up product and just wanted something that worked). I can't afford many things (even food... seriously) but I can't expect a private business to treat me any differntly than others or give me something for nothing. That's just the reality of poverty. Fact is I have a better excuse than most for being broke. I lost my money making careers (my day job(s) AND my live performing gigs) due to excruciating and debilitating disability. Before that I work my nuts off to support my music and bought what I could and accepted that there were just some things I couldn't afford. If I REALLY wanted it I saved up and/or worked harder and/or found other solutions.
 
For your starving artist friends I see no reason why they need to put themselves at risk if they can't afford to pay upfront or be certatin they don't miss payments. Now I'm going to do something that I NEVER do on here and mention another product. Tell them to download and install the Reaper demo and/or fork over the $70 for a full license. It is fully functional, works very well even on crappy systems and would allow them to do all their tracking and even do a ton of basic mixing tasks so they can give you, their producer, an idea of what they want. So they get their tracks down, export the raw, uneffected waves for you to work with and create their own mix to show you what they want using the plenty useable onboard tools.
 
Is it as good as Sonar? Well that depends on your perspective but I don't think so and it certainly isn't as cool or have as much cool stuff included BUT beggars can be choosers and if they truly are starving artists with the starving artist bellyfire then they need to be flexible and work with what is available. You as producer should have absolutely no problems exporting their tracks into Sonar and fancying it all up for them. No OMF of stems or any other weird crap necessary.
 
As someone who has managed to scrimp and scream and claw and grunt my way into having a workable modern rig despite all the massive obstacles I've faced over the past five years or so I completely reject the premise that reasonably healthy and motivated artists can't make a good hearty go of things with all the low cost tools available. Sonar itself is low cost and more accessible than before with this new model so again I say they have NT mae things worse of more difficult. They have provided extra options for those who want them. If people cannot accept or don't think they'll be able to fulfill the terms outlined by the new model then they should not participate until they are in a position to do so. That is not meant as an attack or to be demeaning/dismissive. It is meant as a motivator. Git 'er done!
 
Cheers.
2015/01/23 19:31:35
jackson white
denverdrummer
Sonar Artist is $99 bucks or $10 bucks a month.  And that's enough for someone to lay down tracks.  If you're a professional musician starving or not, if you can't afford that much to support your career, you might want to consider a different line of work.



This forum can be pretty funny at times. CW may want to consider making some of these responses stickies to improve the productivity of the forum hosts. 
 
Is "irate forum troll" a line of work?  
 
Or perhaps it was "professional" that weeds them out. 
2015/01/23 20:00:00
Splat
2015/01/23 20:01:21
BJN
As the understanding is beginning to unfold it seems fairly simple. You upgrade as you have always done and it is as it has always been albeit a membership program that could potentially become a buying feature for new users.
 
I think the installment option will be win even more users for CW who once own it after 12 months are likely to pay in full for their upgrade. otherwise it would fell like a subscription.
 
 
2015/01/23 22:17:07
mudgel
I wonder how long it will be before we get threads like:

My sonar doesn't work anymore.
Much dialog back and forth to find out why
Then.........
You know you have to keep making your monthly payments
I didn't know that Sonar wouldn't work anymore if I stopped paying.

Guess it will take a few months. Sorry just trying to make light.
2015/01/26 00:47:06
Living Room Rocker
denverdrummer
...What you seem to be missing is that the price of the program is the price of the program.  You get a bit of a price brake if you pay up front, but other than that, you have to pay for the price of the license.  If you want to sell them on Pro or Platinum, great, but you should tell them that's what it's going to cost.

 
But consider this, if they can't pay for the rest of the payments after say six months they then lose the functionality and have nothing left after their investment.  That idea in itself is a big discouragement for them to even consider buying.  Now, Cakewalk has been a great company with customer relations and such.  I see the consolation idea fits well with the companies history with their customers.
 
denverdrummer
If I choose Monthly Membership payments, can I cancel before 12 Months?
Yes, but 12 consecutive monthly payments are required to permanently activate SONAR and any updates you have received. If you cancel payment or don’t pay for at least 12 months, SONAR will revert to demo mode. This means you can’t save or export projects, however anything you saved up to that point will still open and play in the demo. Once you resume payments, you can make new edits and save them.

 
denverdrummer
So if I'm reading this right, if they miss a month they can resume later and pick back up where they were.  And they can still open projects in demo mode, they just can't save or make changes, until they resume payments.
 
From the responses you've gotten from the bakers, I think they are trying to provide alternatives, but you seem to just want  a free program for your client, or one that is 100% functional if they pay or not.  That's not fair to those paying the full price up front, or making timely payments
 
 
The bottom line here is you want something that is not offered, and won't be offered.  There have been suggestions for alternatives.  But the fact is no other DAW offers this choice.

 
Your statement "...just want a free program...or one that is 100% functional if they pay or not..."  is not accurate.  What I am talking about is the incentive to the new customer.  Something that negates the gamble/risk.  Also, they will never own SONAR unless they complete a full 12 month (uninterrupted) period.  Cakewalk has a reputation of listening to its customers (expect for the notation request).  There is the possibility that CW would consider this.  But the fact is Cakewalk offers what no other DAW offers.
 
Beepster
Well I appreciate your follow up. I do still think you are creating some very unique and odd scenarios that really wouldn't affect most users and were not better served by the old model...

 
But it would also benefit many other potential users and Cakewalk with more new customers, which many here are not considering.
 
Beepster 
 ...Now I'm going to do something that I NEVER do on here and mention another product. Tell them to download and install the Peaper demo and/or fork over the $70 for a full license.

 
I respect the Bakers enough to avoid the same, which I did.  This is what they are working with currently, hence the need to transfer tracks and such when sharing instead of just sharing SONAR projects.  But you can obviously see with your suggestion that Cakewalk is not gaining a new customer or gaining any profit.  Like I said before, I have won some of my clients over to SONAR and so far so good (expect for the existing bugs).  I believe in Cakewalk, but have grown a little wary as I mentioned to you in our other conversation along these lines regarding the monthly bug fixes.
 
So, I trust you can see things in a broader perspective.  I don't expect anything free for me or my clients.  I am hoping that Cakewalk would consider an alternative for those new and potential customers whom may not maintain the monthly payments mid year.  I was just offering ideas as they came to me.  And yes, I can afford the full cost of SONAR and agree that Cakewalk has been generous in offering such a great upgrade cost all these years.  As I have made my regular purchase of the new version of SONAR, I did not complain about the increase of price which I also find reasonable.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
2015/01/26 03:35:50
Anderton
Living Room Rocker
But consider this, if they can't pay for the rest of the payments after say six months they then lose the functionality and have nothing left after their investment. 



They were not making an investment. They were committing to pay for the cost of the software over 12 months. In return, they were able to use the software from Day 1 of ownership instead of having to save up for 12 months and then buy it. If you don't pay the full cost of a product, that product is not yours. 
 
It is not correct to say they have "nothing left." They have the projects they created during six months of using the software, which apparently they could not have afforded otherwise.
 
It is not Cakewalk's responsibility to predict the future of a customer's finances. That obligation rests on the customer. If the customer is not comfortable committing to pay for the software over 12 months, they should save and buy it up front.
2015/01/26 16:42:28
Living Room Rocker
Anderton
Living Room Rocker
But consider this, if they can't pay for the rest of the payments after say six months they then lose the functionality and have nothing left after their investment. 



They were not making an investment. They were committing to pay for the cost of the software over 12 months. In return, they were able to use the software from Day 1 of ownership instead of having to save up for 12 months and then buy it. If you don't pay the full cost of a product, that product is not yours. 
 
It is not correct to say they have "nothing left." They have the projects they created during six months of using the software, which apparently they could not have afforded otherwise.
 
It is not Cakewalk's responsibility to predict the future of a customer's finances. That obligation rests on the customer. If the customer is not comfortable committing to pay for the software over 12 months, they should save and buy it up front.


Hi Craig,
 
With all due respect, please let me respond.  There have been a few words used to describe the new membership payment plan.  It all seems like semantics.  But by describing the plan as an investment by a new customer (that is, putting money forth in the hope or intention of gaining a greater value), then it is suitable in this instance just as "loan" was used as well.  Thereby, what I am trying to stress is that such a new customer is putting money toward the ownership of a product.  I am confident we all agree on that.  In the scenario I have described, some new customers may not make 12 consecutive payments.  However, since they may have spent money within, say six months of payments, that money would be lost.   So, there is nothing to be said in consolation for what would amount in over $50 for just Artist?  Surely it could be considered as some kind of "credit" at the end of 12 months from the date of the initial payment should no other payments be made.  Which is my effort here... for Cakewalk to consider.  I am sure my clients are not the only potential customers for Cakewalk to gain with offering some kind of reasonable incentive for time paid.
 
As you say, they have their projects.  However, the content in said project is already owned by the performer (author, etc.).  Whether recorded or not, that remains true.  So, the project itself is of little to no value without the content.  Therefore, in context, I am referring to a product, not a production.
 
Is what I am proposing so unreasonable or, perhaps, impossible for Cakewalk and Gibson to consider?  Is it too out of this world?  What's with all the hostility from others?  I am not attempting to cheat Cakewalk or Gibson. And any reasonable means (like my suggestion) to reinforce customer relations can be of great benefit for either company.  I am merely making a reasonable case. 
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
2015/01/26 17:04:10
Bristol_Jonesey
I think a lot of people are reading FAR too much into the possibilities & ramifications of the monthly payment system.
 
All Cakewalk are doing - in my simplistic view of the universe - is offering users & potential users a way to pay monthly if they cannot afford to pay the full price up front.
 
Is that so hard to understand?
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