Hi, guys. Moving on with my little X3 experiment and wanting to try something out some controller stuff but would like some input from those who work with MIDI regularly to avoid and bungling/wasted time.
 
Situation: Yesterday I converted a live bass track to MIDI to try out some synth stuff. In this song there are a few parts where I slide up/down between notes and I would like to try using portamento to mimic this on the MIDI track. I technically could do this with pitch wheel but a) I think portamento is more appropriate for the material and b) I'm trying to learn new stuff and I already pretty much understand the pitch wheel stuff. I already know how to create a new controller lane and set the parameter.
 
So what I would like to have happen (using hypothetical notes and slashies to represent the direction of the slide): With each note being articulated after the slide(s) it would be something like this...
 
A# \ F / A# A# / D#
 
So the A# is sounded, slides down to the F and the F is sounded, slides back up to the A# which is sounded TWICE with no slide in between (obviously) then the second A# slides up to the D# which is sounded. Hope that makes sense.
 
What I'd like to know is do I just need to put in one Porta controller on individual notes? If so where and on which notes?
 
Also I'm doing this with Zeta which I'm pretty sure has a Portamento function. I just read that some synths have it and some synths don't, which is fine, but if I tried another synth with the track will it just not play or will it cause problems (if it does play that's fine but if it's gonna do something dumb I'll just remove them). Also I think Portamento has a standardized CC# that should work across synths BUT I'm not sure so would like to know if any of the synths that came with X3 Producer would vary as far as the Porta CC#. If so what is the best way to change things so it works? I'm guessing either in the Controllers pane, on the synth itself or maybe in the Track Inspector.
 
Any good vids on youtube or articles I should watch/read? I did check the manual and poked around the intertubes a bit but I'm not seeing much that actually describes where you would put Porta controllers.
 
Anyway... hopefully that makes sense. No big rush. Just an old dog trying to learn some new tricks.
 
Arf!
 

Still happily poking away at my track via the PRV but giving this a bump before it falls off the first page (sorry).
 
It is entirely possible I am completely misunderstanding the portamento function in regards to MIDI and synths and how the controllers work but that's why I posted this hamfisted query. Pretty much anything you guys post (that's related to the subject matter) starts me off in the right direction.
 
Again... no bigs. I've got plenty to do at the moment but would like to develop a better understanding on this and how to program such things after the fact. Looked around a little more and ain't really finding much. Mostly suggestions about recording live MIDI with porta enabled in advanced but that won't work for this. Perhaps this is more of a Techniques thing but I am obviously doing this in Sonar so thought it was relevant to the Sonar forum.
 
Cheers.

i've always thought porta was down to the synth, in which case maybe set or automate the porta "amount" owic on the synth?

pwalpwal
i've always thought porta was down to the synth, in which case maybe set or automate the porta "amount" owic on the synth?

Yeah, I am getting that impression and I think many CC type stuff is synth dependent but I need to be able to write it into the PRV. I know that's possible with the right synth (because a live performance with an active Porta thing going on will be written as controllers... I think). I'm just not sure how to duplicate that after the fact. I could probably figure out how to set a synth to porta so that when I play one note then play a second a portamento will occur but this track is already "printed". Maybe if I can't get this figured out then I could try that on a blank MIDI track and study how the controllers appear... then try to duplicate that.
 
Cheers.
 
Edit: Oh and I need it literally just for a few notes at a time. It would ruin the track if I put it on everything. I think porta can be turned on/off with an expression pedal so maybe it is an on/off controller that needs to be written in on the appropriate notes. Like I would just turn it on with a controller under the A# leave it on for the F and the next A# but turn it off before the second A#.
 
hmm... I probably have that totally wrong but maybe.

Unfortunately all my stuff is in storage now, but here's a few tidbits from my head:
You would need to send portamento on/off MIDI controls. They may not respond fast enough for a quick passage.
You also need to set the portamento time (how long to slide from one note to another).
There is usually a re-trigger switch to determine whether the note is retriggered or not.
I'm not sure Z3TA+2 has portamento. Pentagon does though.
 
Probably not much help.
 

daveny5
Unfortunately all my stuff is in storage now, but here's a few tidbits from my head:
You would need to send portamento on/off MIDI controls. They may not respond fast enough for a quick passage.
You also need to set the portamento time (how long to slide from one note to another).
There is usually a re-trigger switch to determine whether the note is retriggered or not.
I'm not sure Z3TA+2 has portamento. Pentagon does though.
 
Probably not much help.
 

That actually is extremely helpful because it is helping me understand the basic premise of a MIDI porta instructions. So it IS an on/off scenario which I was slowly wrapping my thick skull around but the length/timing and retrigger is something I would not have considered.
 
I'm starting to think that perhaps I might have more luck studying the various synth manuals then taking instructions from there and applying them to the PRV.
 
Kind of disappointing these things may not be fast actions because these would be very quick changes.
 
I'd also like to try patch change events and was worried about how quickly/smoothly those things would happen. Didn't think CC stuff would be stumped though. Either way at least I've got a bit of info to start working with. If it doesn't work out the way I like I may have to use pitch wheel controllers instead but as I said... just trying to learn some useful stuff.
 
Thanks, Dave.

Beepster

daveny5
Unfortunately all my stuff is in storage now, but here's a few tidbits from my head:
You would need to send portamento on/off MIDI controls. They may not respond fast enough for a quick passage.
You also need to set the portamento time (how long to slide from one note to another).
There is usually a re-trigger switch to determine whether the note is retriggered or not.
I'm not sure Z3TA+2 has portamento. Pentagon does though.
 
Probably not much help.
 

That actually is extremely helpful because it is helping me understand the basic premise of a MIDI porta instructions. So it IS an on/off scenario which I was slowly wrapping my thick skull around but the length/timing and retrigger is something I would not have considered.
 
I'm starting to think that perhaps I might have more luck studying the various synth manuals then taking instructions from there and applying them to the PRV.
 
Kind of disappointing these things may not be fast actions because these would be very quick changes.
 
I'd also like to try patch change events and was worried about how quickly/smoothly those things would happen. Didn't think CC stuff would be stumped though. Either way at least I've got a bit of info to start working with. If it doesn't work out the way I like I may have to use pitch wheel controllers instead but as I said... just trying to learn some useful stuff.
 
Thanks, Dave.

 
Different synths handle portamento in different ways. The reason for MIDI-Controller 5 saying "Portamento time" in PRV is just that it's set to the GM-standard.
 
A popular way of controlling the portamento time/speed in today's software instruments are with velocity actually. The fast(harder) you strike the key the faster portamento.
 
One important thing to remember about all standard MIDI-controllers is that they can't send data to separate MIDI notes. It's only key aftertouch that can do this, and this is no regular MIDI-controller, but a separate MIDI-message of its own.
 
It's easy to assign the portamento time to any controller in Z3TA+2.
EDIT: Sorry forgot to mention.. For the Portamento Time to work at all you also have to select a "portamento mode", found at the bottom of the list of parameters in the perform-section. "Norm, Fix" should be alright. This means it will only do portamento when notes overlap but not when releasing a key before playing a new one.
Then just right click the Portamento Time knob and choose what ever controller you want to use.

 
After you've done this you can set max and min values for the knob itself (which I would recommend for better more "high resolution" control over the speed..) Just set the knob at the highest value you think you'll need and select Porta Time -> Set Max. 
 
You can also set max min values for the MIDI CC. This might come in handy if you've want one CC to affect many parameters at once and you want the portamento time only to change ex. between the controller-values 10-50 and remain unchanged above and below these values.

..another thing I forgot to mention; you probably want to set the sound to monophonic.
you'll find that setting at the bottom right of the instrument

So, this is a really good topic for me to follow and contribute.  First off, I have been thinking about using Melodyne to convert audio tracks to midi and then using "samples" to play back the audio.  I know this sounds like going in circles but my motive is to create MIDI tracks for other folks to use as a tool to see how the parts were played and to be able to play around with performances by modifying the midi tracks.
 
So, I have done this with synths and the only sample playback software that I could find that would recreate that PORTAMENTO effect accurately was KONTAKT.  So now, I can sample my old synths, create a KONTAKT program and then turn on/off, manipulate the portamento time, etc just as on the synth itself.
 
But, now on to guitars (bass and regular)... I find that using Portamento on BASS samples doesn't sound the same as sliding on the fret board... some available sample packs have keyswitches that play back actual samples with the slides but these too have limitations, that is, the slide time is out of your control... most of the time, the slide is too slow or too fast to recreate the correct feel of the slide... however, this timing piece can be recreated in midi with a series/combination of pitch bends and retriggered notes at low velocities and if solo'ed doesn't sound right but in context within the MIX, is very passable.   It is virtually a waste of time to try and draw in these midi events and sound realistic however, using a guitar, equiped with a MIDI pickup, the audio to midi convert within the MIDI GUITAR hardware creates these MIDI events to pretty accurate timings.
 
Once you get the MIDI tracks created then you have the option to load different bass samples that will be triggered by the track.  Try a PRECISION bass or perhaps a RICK bass would sound different, etc.  You get the idea.
 
Same thing with guitars... oh and by the way, strumming rhythm MIDI tracks are quite easy to create using the guitar controller as well and remember, you have the option of slowing down the track to create exacting strum patterns if the MIDI controller can't keep up with the conversions.
 
So, for single note or slides on a fretboard, this technique works pretty well.  It is the other articulations on a fretboard that still allude me, that is, hammer ons and pulls offs, etc.  which I think are going to have to take the route of actually sampling these articulations and using key switches to trigger but this is really a lot of work and unfortunately, the commercial sample fret board instruments out there all use the own scheme of keyswitches to change the sample articulations and as such, loading different bass guitars isn't as simple as just changing the sample program in that each uses it own key switch scheme.... I don't own but only imagine that the TRILOGY bass project would use the same scheme across the many bass guitars sampled in the package.
 
Anyway, these are my current thoughts on using MIDI to trigger fret based instruments. I look forward to reading about other's thoughts and understanding on this subject for that I know there are folks out there that know a lot more about this than me.
 
Thanks for starting this thread,
Jim

@Loptec... Wow. Thanks for putting in all that effort. I should definitely be able to figure it out with such detailed descriptions. I'm starting to think maybe the easiest way for me to accomplish this will be to insert a second instance of Zeta with the same patch but configured to use portamento. Then in a second track just paste a copy of the sections I need it applied to. Or I guess I could get the portamento settings the way I want, save a preset then program in a program cahnge (which I also have to learn about). I think I may have completely misunderstood exactly how portamento works (I'm a guitar guy so all this synth stuff is new to me) and I may be misinterpreting your posts as well but I'm sure once I start poking through your instructions I'll see what's up. Currently I'm taking a little break from the MIDI tracks to fiddle with some outboard guitar gear and my sims so I can track some leads/melodies. I'll update this once I get a chance to work through your directions.
 
Cheers.