Blame Adobe and the creative cloud for messing with people's expectations when they hear "subscription". Membership was a good alternative, I think.
"Rent to Own" is actually accurate but sounds, kinda, used-car-slimey.

Earwax
My only concern is with the payment plan portion of Cakewalk's model. I think, without a doubt, it is absolutely the worst way to purchase Sonar. Financially, it makes no sense to me that anyone would do it. But, there you go!

 
It is if you set out to purchase it. If you say "I am going to pay for 12 months and buy this product," from day one then it is a waste of money. However it is a good model if you aren't sure. That is really what you get. You can rent it if you aren't sure how much you'll like it or how long you'll use it, but then if you end up renting it long enough, you get to keep it. So you don't feel like it was just money down the drain.
 
It is also ok for people who are bad at managing money. Some people don't do savings well. Like my home insurance is due one a year. The full amount it technically due at the beginning (as it is a yearly contract). However, they'll let me pay monthly... as long as I also pay a $3 "convenience fee" per payment. Clearly that is financially suboptimal, however clearly some people like it because they keep offering it. People can't plan ahead and save up, so they'd rather pay more. Not a good idea, but there you go.
 
You'd end up about the same if you paid it up front on a credit card that you then didn't pay down or rented it from CW, 20%ish.
 
Me? I'm a buy it kind of guy. However in my case, that is arguably stupid. I only play with Sonar as a hobby and like many hobbies, I'll neglect it sometimes. It would probably make more sense to only rent it when I need it, so long as I rent it for 9 months or less a year, I save over buying it up front. But, I like the buy option (insist on it in fact) so that is how the Sycraft do.

yevster
Have you guys been following the NAMM news today? "Subscription" is no longer a bad word. Everyone's doing it now. Avid, Slate. Waves has been doing subscriptions (both update plans and plugin rentals) for years. Subscription is the new black!

"Subscription" has an accepted definition as it relates to software where you lose rights to the use the software after the rental term is up. Avid, Microsoft, and Slate all offer the option to buy licenses outright but if you subscribe, from everything I've read you can no longer use the software. 
 
With Cakewalk's model, you can CONTINUE TO USE THE SOFTWARE AFTER THE TERM IS UP. How may times do I have to say this? This is not the standard description of a software subscription model. Of course, you are free to create a custom definition for "subscription" so you can say Cakewalk follows that model, but it's unreasonable to expect those who do know the accepted definition to agree with yours.

I understand the pay all now, or pay monthly = same difference. I think most do.
 
What i do not yet understand is if the 'New Sonar' updates to the software end at one year... or like previous versions will go through continuous free updates, bug fixes added features, etc. until another major version is offered - for example, Sonar8 went from 8.0 through 8.5, then X series - X3 went through a,b,c,d, and e, before Sonar Platinum was offered.
These free updates and bug fixes were spread over more than one year, were they not?
 
These free updates continued right up until an 'all new' version of Sonar was offered, did they not?
How does this compare now with the new system?  I think this is where some clarity would be helpful for some of us.
 
For example, will under the hood improvements and bug fixes end for the 'new' Sonar owners at the end of a year, without paying more money?  Or will these kinds of updates continue until the next major overhaul and new product offering (EG. New Sonar 2.0)?
Cheers,
 
 

Anderton

yevster
Have you guys been following the NAMM news today? "Subscription" is no longer a bad word. Everyone's doing it now. Avid, Slate. Waves has been doing subscriptions (both update plans and plugin rentals) for years. Subscription is the new black!

"Subscription" has an accepted definition as it relates to software where you lose rights to the use the software after the rental term is up. Avid, Microsoft, and Slate all offer the option to buy licenses outright but if you subscribe, from everything I've read you can no longer use the software. 
 
With Cakewalk's model, you can CONTINUE TO USE THE SOFTWARE AFTER THE TERM IS UP. How may times do I have to say this? This is not the standard description of a software subscription model. Of course, you are free to create a custom definition for "subscription" so you can say Cakewalk follows that model, but it's unreasonable to expect those who do know the accepted definition to agree with yours.

Actually, what Avid is offering for ProTools (as opposed to Media Composer which appears to be a Creative Suite type rental) seems to be offering a sale of software (perpetual license) plus a support contract paid in a lump sum covering one year, during which time you are entitled to upgrades as they become available plus unlimited online support and limited (depending on how much you pay) telephone support. So, except for the absence of a monthly payment plan, it looks a lot like Cakewalk Membership.
 
http://www.avid.com/US/Support/avid-advantage#plans
 
Lets piss John off and call it a support contract.

Sycraft

Earwax
My only concern is with the payment plan portion of Cakewalk's model. I think, without a doubt, it is absolutely the worst way to purchase Sonar. Financially, it makes no sense to me that anyone would do it. But, there you go!

 
It is if you set out to purchase it. If you say "I am going to pay for 12 months and buy this product," from day one then it is a waste of money.

I agree with you completely.
 

Sycraft

Earwax

 
However it is a good model if you aren't sure. That is really what you get. You can rent it if you aren't sure how much you'll like it or how long you'll use it, but then if you end up renting it long enough, you get to keep it. So you don't feel like it was just money down the drain.

 
This is what the soon-to-be-released free Demo is for. Though, according to Noel Borthwick in another thread, the Demo most likely won’t include third party content, you will still be able to get a feel for the program’s core operation. If you are an upgrading user, you already have a fully functioning version of Sonar that you can use to get “real” work done. So, I see little need for a current user to pay anything to test out the new version. If you absolutely have to test out EVERY piece of content in the bundle, one month (paid) should be the maximum necessary.
 
If you are a new user, the model makes even less sense. The cost goes from $15 - $20 a month to $40 - $50 a month. That’s a lot of money to test out software. Again, that’s what the free Demo is for. But, if you have the uncontrollable urge to test EVERY piece of content in the bundle, one paid month should more than cover it.
But, then again, I would guess that most of the third party content providers have their own free Demo versions of their software that a potential user can try. Why pay?
 

Sycraft

Earwax

 
It is also ok for people who are bad at managing money. Some people don't do savings well. Like my home insurance is due one a year. The full amount it technically due at the beginning (as it is a yearly contract). However, they'll let me pay monthly... as long as I also pay a $3 "convenience fee" per payment. Clearly that is financially suboptimal, however clearly some people like it because they keep offering it. People can't plan ahead and save up, so they'd rather pay more. Not a good idea, but there you go.

Totally disagree with your first sentence. Completely agree with your last sentence. It has been demonstrated repeatedly that the people most likely to get into trouble with ANY kind of installment plan are those who are bad at managing money. If someone is that bad at managing his/her money, maybe a much less costly (or free) software alternative should be considered.
 

Sycraft

Earwax

You'd end up about the same if you paid it up front on a credit card that you then didn't pay down or rented it from CW, 20%ish.

If you pay for Sonar with a credit card, a loan from your credit union, a loan from your 401(k), a loan from your grandmother, etc., you will never lose full use of your software. None of those institutions will take away your software if you miss payments. Well, your grandmother might…. Seriously, with institutional financing of your software, it can’t be deactivated, even if you miss the first three payments, for whatever reason (legitimate or otherwise). I’m sure this would not be the case with Cakewalk/Gibson. You will obviously get flak from the institution, but things can be worked out with them. In the interim, your software is safe.
 
Even if your financing rate is 25% per annum, you end up paying very little more than you would pay with Cake’s plan.
 
I would say over 90% of people pay for items over time because they can’t afford to, or simply don’t want to, pay the full price up front. I see the number of people who truly want to “rent” Sonar to be so small as to be inconsequential. Renting Sonar is not quite the same as renting, say, a backhoe.
 
I just can’t see how Cakewalk’s installment plan is good for the user. If you want to “try it out”, get the software Demos for free. If you can’t afford the upfront price, finance it. If your credit (or family good will) is so bad that you can’t get a loan, and you have no other access to funds…..well…you have much bigger problems than trying to figure out how to buy Sonar.

John

Susan G

John
Because I think its important Susan. The reason I made the thread. 
 
Because the new threads are coming very quickly it gets pushed to another page and some don't notice it. I think it should be seen. 

Hi John-
 
But why is it so important? That's what I don't understand. It can't be called a subscription because...? Even though some CW-ers have used a magazine subscription analogy.
 
Why is it such a dirty word?
 
-Susan

People have a very negative view of subscriptions based on the Adobe model. Its important that people know that CW is not offering one at all. I don't want anyone getting a false impression about the Sonar 2015. 
 
I would like to see a reference to the CW person's statement that calls it a subscription. Officially its a membership.  

sub·scrip·tion
səbˈskripSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: subscription; plural noun: subscriptions

1.
the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.
 
Not that I really care what it's called ... I've paid up my next 12 months membership dues in advance  

Earwax
If you can’t afford the upfront price, finance it. If your credit (or family good will) is so bad that you can’t get a loan, and you have no other access to funds…..well…you have much bigger problems than trying to figure out how to buy Sonar.

There's a word that seems to have disappeared from the English language :  save.
 
When I was a kid, that was the only way you could get anything.  What happened ?  Brain washing on a huge scale.  Now we would rather pay more than less.  Weird.
 
And, I might add, companies are exploiting this weakness, Cakewalk included.
 

slartabartfast
 

Actually, what Avid is offering for ProTools (as opposed to Media Composer which appears to be a Creative Suite type rental) seems to be offering a sale of software (perpetual license) plus a support contract paid in a lump sum covering one year, during which time you are entitled to upgrades as they become available plus unlimited online support and limited (depending on how much you pay) telephone support. So, except for the absence of a monthly payment plan, it looks a lot like Cakewalk Membership.
 



I didn't see any kind of regular update concept, just "updates as they become available." I couldn't tell whether that involves new features or just bug fixes and maintenance updates. 

QuadCore
What i do not yet understand is if the 'New Sonar' updates to the software end at one year... or like previous versions will go through continuous free updates, bug fixes added features, etc. until another major version is offered - for example, Sonar8 went from 8.0 through 8.5, then X series - X3 went through a,b,c,d, and e, before Sonar Platinum was offered.
These free updates and bug fixes were spread over more than one year, were they not?...These free updates continued right up until an 'all new' version of Sonar was offered, did they not?

 
With previous versions of SONAR, you got updates for about six months or less. Now you get them for up to a year. So the new model delivers fixes for longer.
 

How does this compare now with the new system?  I think this is where some clarity would be helpful for some of us.

 
Cakewalk did not release bug fixes for programs that are no longer for sale. If you do not continue your membership you "freeze" the program at that point. However, as Noel has stated, if some serious bug was discovered it would be made available. That's one of the advantages of the new installer, it's not hard to do that sort of thing.