• SONAR
  • Staff View Bugs (p.4)
2015/01/19 15:43:06
bapu
I know that "many" is arbitrary and human nature to say "if more than one person agrees with me there are many".
 
I used to be a VP Of Product Development an occasionally I would get one or two people (out of thousands of users) say "Why don't you have X? I can't imagine anyone using this software without it."
 
Know what the user base said about X when polled? Yup, the said "Meh".
 
2015/01/19 15:54:35
kitekrazy1
Paul P
 
I've been dreaming for a year or two of acquiring Sibelius, but I found the cost was just too high.
 
Now that Sonar may be 200$ / year, Sibelius is starting to look more interesting.  I think I can live with X3 for three years (thank God for X3).  I can buy Sibelius in the meantime and upgrade Sonar after that, if I really think it's necessary.
 
Or I could upgrade to Sonar with a proper Staff View...
 




 I have Finale and Finale Print Music. You'd be surprised that the smaller package is only what you need.
2015/01/19 16:08:59
dubdisciple
Bapu amuses me with his uncanny ability to make anything lighthearted.  :)
 
I was thinking more along the lines of a survey of say 50,000 composers or so claiming the lack of staff view midi limitations in DAWS is among their top priorities. I know that is exaggerated, but my point is that Cakewalk probably needs to see some over the top reliable figures that go beyond anecdotal and speculative asessments of demand. While I'm  sure they hate the annual takeover of multiple threads by the same core group, it is a mild annoyance dwarfed by the bashing trolls that appear around the same time. I'm  not saying to discontinue trying to get improvements, but suggesting revision of strategy since the same one is obviously not working.
2015/01/19 16:18:40
microapp
bapu
microapp
The new model does not lend itself to new complicated features.


Why not?
 
Features can be developed in parallel.
Month 0           Month 1                                Month 2    Month 3                        Month 4
Feature 1----------------------------------------------------->Complete
Feature 2------Complete     Feature 3--------->Complete     Feature 4-------------------
 
I'm pretty sure the whole dev team does not work on one feature at a time.




Bapu,
I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying that if it were easy. it would have been done under the old system where a good portion of resources could be applied without time limits. Now, Cake is going to have to deliver monthly updates and some new features. The flow will look like your diagram but more complex since (I hope) we get more than one bug-fix a month. 
I distrust the new paradigm because now, the devs will be under 12 deadlines per year rather than say one or two. What will happen will be reduced expectations. I have seen this occur in software shops many times.
You will see more things like the AudioSync feature. I have not yet tried it (Wed. I hope) but it looks like a knob assigned to do a nudge. I consider things like this as relatively simple since the functionality(a nudge) is already there and just needs to be assigned to an interface function which in this example is a knob control. In some cases things like this can be a huge plus to workflow so don't get me wrong here, I am not attempting to trivialize them.
I am simply saying that to meet the monthly deadline, you will see much more of this kind of thing rather than a staff view rewrite, complete MIDI rewrite or a drum re-mapper.
How many software devs does Cake have?  I would guess 10 +/- a factor of 2. That is not a lot considering that there will be monthly projects, 2 month projects and so on.
In addition (this has been mentioned elsewhere) you have to test these monthly updates thoroughly to make sure they interact with other aspects of the program properly and do not break other things.
So I am not trying to put down Cake, I am only stating what I have seen in my own experience.
I really, really hope they can pull it off otherwise there will be a lot of disappointed people.
 
2015/01/19 16:29:40
bapu
microapp, what we don't know is how many projects were started last week or two weeks ago that are not yet complete. I know I do not want to assume that as of today no projects are underway. That'smy take on "complex" projects.
 
Bugs will probably be addressed on level. Level 0=showstoppers, Leve1=Pretty darn important but cludge work around, Level2=Annoying but simple work around, Level3= spelling, alignment or wonky works but "ugly", Level4-Deferred.
 
So as you say I'd expect more more bugs to be delivered every month than big ticket items.
 
The current Melodyne bug (experienced by some, just not me right now) seems to border on Level 0. I imagine users will see this either Jan 31 (even though it's a really short month).
2015/01/19 16:32:44
dubdisciple
microapp
bapu
microapp
The new model does not lend itself to new complicated features.


Why not?
 
Features can be developed in parallel.
Month 0           Month 1                                Month 2    Month 3                        Month 4
Feature 1----------------------------------------------------->Complete
Feature 2------Complete     Feature 3--------->Complete     Feature 4-------------------
 
I'm pretty sure the whole dev team does not work on one feature at a time.




Bapu,
I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying that if it were easy. it would have been done under the old system where a good portion of resources could be applied without time limits. Now, Cake is going to have to deliver monthly updates and some new features. The flow will look like your diagram but more complex since (I hope) we get more than one bug-fix a month. 
I distrust the new paradigm because now, the devs will be under 12 deadlines per year rather than say one or two. What will happen will be reduced expectations. I have seen this occur in software shops many times.
You will see more things like the AudioSync feature. I have not yet tried it (Wed. I hope) but it looks like a knob assigned to do a nudge. I consider things like this as relatively simple since the functionality is already (nudge) there and just needs to be assigned to an interface function which in this example is a knob control. In some cases things like this can be a huge plus to workflow so don't get me wrong here, I am not attempting to trivialize them.
I am simply saying that to meet the monthly deadline, you will see much more of this kind of thing rather than a staff view rewrite, complete MIDI rewrite or a drum re-mapper.
How many software devs does Cake have?  I would guess 10 +/- a factor of 2. That is not a lot considering that there will be monthly projects, 2 month projects and so on.
In addition (this has been mentioned elsewhere) you have to test these monthly updates thoroughly to make sure they interact with other aspects of the program properly and do not break other things.
So I am not trying to put down Cake, I am only stating what I have seen in my own experience.
I really, really hope they can pull it off otherwise there will be a lot of disappointed people.
 


There is way too much slippery slope action to agree with the kind of conclusions this post leads to.  Have you ever done logic grid puzzles? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_puzzle
 
I don't  ask to be condescending  but so as not to assume.One thing I learned when doing them is that if you fill in a square based on thinhs that are not facts, you set yourself back because everything after that is based on a false conclusion  that builds upon itself. For instance, your perception of Vocalsync is off, making conclusions drawn from that even more so. The simple control may look like  a nudge but it is far more advanced.  Imagine taking some of the timestretching features of melodyne and condensing to a simpler, easier to use subset adjustable with one knob? That's  closer to truth than it being a glorified nudge. There are more examples but I don't  want to do an itemized list.
2015/01/19 16:36:06
dubdisciple
btw, adobe has proven it is possible to continually  develope a rolling release and end up having what amounts to what would have been an annual upgrade of features. Hate the financial model, but have no complaints about feature rollout. Once in awhile i get surprised by a major new feature that felt like it came from nowhere.
2015/01/19 16:37:55
bapu
dubdisciple
btw, adobe has proven it is possible to continually  develope a rolling release and end up having what amounts to what would have been an annual upgrade of features. Hate the financial model, but have no complaints about feature rollout. Once in awhile i get surprised by a major new feature that felt like it came from nowhere.


Proper resource allocation.
 
That's the driving force of ANY software development effort.
2015/01/19 16:52:42
sharke
dubdisciple
I try to avoid saying much in these threads becaue i really do feel some compassion for the frustration of this issue.  I can't  help but think the only way anything significant will ever happen with staff view is if third party  is acquired and integrated into Sonar. It just doesn't  seem like the number of people who would switch to sonar solely due to staff view improvements  is large enough to justify the resource expenditure.  I would be curious as to what the numbers are for any DAW as far as the number that use staff view as primary means of creating midi data. Perhaps some raw numbers, even if informal, would be more convincing  than repeating the same rant annually.


One thing they could try I suppose would be to enlist a third party to develop a super-amazing staff view and sell it as an extra for those who want it. Perhaps they could market it as a bundle, "Sonar Composer" or something like that, and include some good quality orchestral libraries. I for one would be tempted.
2015/01/19 16:53:09
microapp
As I said I have not tried VocalSync since I did not win the lottery to get an early release.
From what I have read in other threads some people are disappointed with this particular feature. This may be a bad example but the gist of what I said is valid.
If Cake were reluctant to redo SV before they will be even more so under the new paradigm.
With all this said, I have already ordered Platinum. I have been putting off a new system waiting for X4 and I am counting the hours until the release of 2015. 
I have been doing this (software/hardware) for longer than most of the people on the forum have been alive. I have worked in most of the common software development paradigms (Xtreme, Agile, Waterfall, Scrum) and they all have their benefits and their pitfalls. Most of the time it all boils down to the individuals involved as to how well a paradigm works. And not just devs, sales has a lot to do with it not to mention management.   I know Cake has some top-notch people and I am 100% in their corner. It is a gutsy move but you have to take chances if you want to separate your product from the mainstream drivel that seems to be the new norm.
 
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