• SONAR
  • Step Sequencer And Session Drummer 3 (p.2)
2014/12/31 16:41:28
dubdisciple
I think SD3 has been using flac for awhile.Glad it worked out
2015/01/01 12:49:55
Hypocrita
Good afternoon everyone!


I've been doing some research, as well as some experimentation, and I came up with a few questions regarding this thread. I hope that's alright with everyone!

I suppose the first thing I would like cleared up is concerning the FLAC files: you said that SD3 does support them, and that the SFZ itself has no issue with any file type? The only reason I converted the files in the first place to a WAV was due to not having the sounds load up in SD3. I had the correct paths, etc. all leading the the proper FLAC files, and yet nothing was sounding. I could have been either doing it wrong, or missing something vitally important that I'm not currently aware of. If any of you know of why this is the case, do let me know as converting, while not a time killer, is also not something I want to bother doing!

The next question I would direct at Robert_E_Bone, if you're still around, as I saw in other threads that you seem to have knowledge in this area.
Concerning drum maps, I saw that you said that in Sonar X2, drum maps were not intended to be used with the step sequencer and, in fact, cause weird unintentional things to happen? Basically, all I need to know in regards to that is the following: In Sonar X3, is this still the case?

Also, I noticed some oddities with the step sequencer. This question is not directed at anyone specific.
When I have the "fit to quarters" feature on, in the drop down for a row, the velocities of each hit are not underneath the corresponding notes, and sometimes don't appear at all!
I was wondering why this is the case: is it simply a visual glitch, or is it something inherent with the step sequencer's "fit to quarters" feature?


Thanks for your time, and have a great day!
-Hypocrita
2015/01/01 13:20:31
Paul P
Hypocrita
I suppose the first thing I would like cleared up is concerning the FLAC files: you said that SD3 does support them, and that the SFZ itself has no issue with any file type? The only reason I converted the files in the first place to a WAV was due to not having the sounds load up in SD3. I had the correct paths, etc. all leading the the proper FLAC files, and yet nothing was sounding. I could have been either doing it wrong, or missing something vitally important that I'm not currently aware of. If any of you know of why this is the case, do let me know as converting, while not a time killer, is also not something I want to bother doing!



SD3 samples are flac files, but the associated sfz files still contain references to the wav file equivalents, so SD3 was patched at some point to look for a flac if it can't find the wav (or something like that).
 
I converted all the flac samples for both DimPro and SD3 to wav files, and modified the sfz files pointing to them accordingly (DimPro sfz files were modified to refer to, the now, flac files).  Not all DimPro samples are flac, some are still wav.  I wrote up my experience in this thread which should be read in its entirety since I encountered several issues along the way before streamlining the process.
 
Regarding your above comment, I wrote the following in message 16 of the above thread which may be related :
 
Paul P
If a sfz file has no references to particular keys (key=, lokey=,hikey=), the sample will play on any instrument in the drum kit.

If there are references to keys in the sfz file, the sample will only play if the key (midi percussion instrument code) is appropriate to the instrument you loaded it for. There are some non-standard codes used in SD3.

So a hats sfz will not play on the floor tom.

All the various hats sfz files will play on the hi-hats, but nowhere else.

 
2015/01/01 14:00:40
scook
 The bundled sfz files were not modified when flac format was added to SD3 (I am guessing around 2010) so all of them still show the old file wave names. I believe that is when the sample search algorithm was modified to first look for the full file name with a fall back to the file name without extension.
 
The sfz specification has nothing to do with audio formats the synths can play. Support for different audio formats is dependent on the synth.
 
There is nothing preventing any sample from being loaded on any note setup for playback in SD3. The sfz files handle the association of samples to notes. SD3 has a fixed strategy for loading each instrument pad but will load anything the sfz defines for the notes in the pad.
2015/01/01 14:43:04
Paul P
scook
There is nothing preventing any sample from being loaded on any note setup for playback in SD3. The sfz files handle the association of samples to notes. SD3 has a fixed strategy for loading each instrument pad but will load anything the sfz defines for the notes in the pad.



Which can prevent a sample playing back.  Only certain notes are allowed per drum kit piece (the midi percussion instrument code for that instrument), if they are specified in the sfz.  If no note is specified in the sfz, there's no problem. For example, if you load a floor tom sfz (with notes 41,43 specified in the sfz) into the SD3 "DRUM" field of its crash cymbal (49,57), it won't play.
 
This is not a standard thing to do, but it's the sort of thing you might do when you're just testing things out and grab any old sfz file at hand to try something out, as Hypocrita appears to be doing.  I lost a few hairs figuring this one out when I was playing around with having SD3 trigger non-drumkit sounds.
 
2015/01/01 14:58:43
scook
Loading an sfz file specifying notes an SD3 pad does not play would not make sense. However, there is nothing preventing one from creating an sfz file with arbitrary sounds associated with the notes a pad can play. There is no standard when it comes to playing arbitrary sounds with MIDI. Just because the UI looks like a drum kit, SD3 is nothing more than an sfz engine synth with playback on MIDI notes 22, 26, 35 through 81 organized on 12 pads and 8 slots for MIDI loops which can be triggered with MIDI notes 27 through 34 with Note 24 stopping the loop.
2015/01/01 16:25:08
Paul P
scook
Loading an sfz file specifying notes an SD3 pad does not play would not make sense.



Maybe, but for this to hold you have to know 1) that SD3 assigns notes to pads and 2) which ones they are.  I have no idea of Hypocrita's experience, but when I encountered the problem of SD3 not playing a sample on a pad I had never heard of midi precussion instrument codes, and a lot of other things.
 
I just wanted to save Hypocrita some hair loss in case s/he was in a situation similar to the one I found myself in.  I hit this issue while converting flacs to wavs so the situations are already somewhat similar.
 
2015/01/01 16:37:09
scook
I got the impression starting with message #6, how SD3 handles note mapping was understood.
2015/01/02 12:12:46
Hypocrita
Good morning!


I suppose I should comment on what previous experience I do have so that there's no more confusion concerning that (as there seems to be a bit of that going on.)

In short, I worked to a small degree with SD2, but never got too in-depth with it, like I am now with SD3. That is to say I never have, until the creation of this thread, worked with SFZ files, or multi-layered samples, things of that nature. I did, however, spend a little bit of time creating GIG files for LinuxSampler, which seems to share some things with SFZ files.
What I do (or did, as I've learned so much in the past few days) know is basic routing and how to set up SD3 to route to different tracks. Another new thing for me is the use of drum maps.
As far as the specifics of how SD3 handles notes, that it can only handle certain notes on certain drum pieces, that I was unaware of. Up until now, that all seemed rather arbitrary to me, but of course, thanks to everyone that commented on that, I know better!

After reading your comments, I went back and decided to check to see if I could get FLAC files to load up, now knowing how things are to be handled. In short, it works!
Apparently I was trying to load up an SFZ with incorrect key bindings for that particular drum piece when I first tried this.

In the past few days, I've learned so much, and again, I have to thank everyone who contributed to this thread!
I feel that my drum creation is finally going in the direction it needs to go to get a smooth and intuitive workflow.
There are still some hurdles to jump over, and things still to learn, however, as is always the case!

Since the starting of this thread, I delved deeper into the step sequencer and discovered it does have some drawbacks, ones that, at least for me, pretty much kill it as an alternative to the piano roll, at least in the sense of one or the other.
The primary one being that it makes triplets a bit difficult to pull off, whereas I know from experience that the piano roll can handle this quite elegantly. Overall, the step sequencer seems to fit into my workflow to make simple snare rolls, things of that nature, that otherwise I can't quite figure out how to pull off in the piano roll view.
As far as I can see right now, I'll be using both to achieve the drum feel and flare I'll need.

With all that being said, as mentioned earlier, I do have some questions still, and these are aimed at the piano roll this time.
Now, I absolutely love how intuitive it is to edit velocity and things of that nature in the step sequencer on a note-by-note, sample per sample basis. What I really need to know is the following: is there a way to solo or otherwise select one sample and all the notes using that sample, and from there only show the velocity of those notes in the piano roll view? I know now that with drum maps, you can solo a sample, and the notes it contains, but I'm not clear on how editable the velocities are, which is something I would really like to start doing to create a more varied and realistic drum sound. The same goes for time offset, swing, and flam, all things I've grown to love about the step sequencer.
In a nutshell, can I achieve the same effects in the piano roll view that I can in the step sequencer, yet still in an intuitive fashion?

I feel like I've gone on long enough, apologies if my walls of text annoy you! I like to make sure that I'm as clear as I possibly can be to avoid any questions regarding what I'm asking. Sometimes it works, sometimes, well, not so much!


In either case, thanks for your time, and have a great day!
-Hypocrita
2015/01/02 15:36:46
dubdisciple
I doubt anyone is annoyed. This forum is for us to help each other. Most of the time you will find the only time people get annoyed with questions and follow up posts are when it seems :
 
1) the person asking seems like they are just trolling i.e.  "why does sonar suck so much?"
2) the questions and statements are combative  like "when are the idiots at cakewalk going to fix...?"
3) the person is more interested in complaing than getting help.
 
One option is to use the convenient aspects of step sequencer and the more surgical  aspects of prv. Yiu can always convert one to another.  You could lay out all of your non-triplet notes in step sequencer and convert clip to prv to handle triplets and other assorted combos, including using offsets in step sequencer. 
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