• SONAR
  • External Insert takes 10% of CPU? (Verify?) (p.2)
2014/11/28 18:51:46
Anderton
I too thought that might be the case, but see post #8.  I tried to duplicate his results on a computer that's LESS capable. His is quad core, the one I tested is dual core and about a GHz slower (although it's Intel and not AMD, so I couldn't duplicate that part of the experiment. The desktop has AMD graphics, but with my driver fix that solved those various latency issues).
 
200 bpm, let me try to clarify what I mean about bug reporting. You say "I insert an external insert and the CPU consumption goes up. It is a bug." HOWEVER, when I insert an external insert, whether on a hot computer or a funky old one, the CPU consumption doesn't go up enough to be even slightly visible.
 
So, the logical conclusion is that simply inserting an external insert is NOT the problem. There is probably an "and" missing, like "If I insert an external insert AND the project is running at 192 kHz" or "If I insert an external insert AND there are AMD graphics drivers" or...something. But just inserting an external insert doesn't seem to be the source of the problem, or it would have caused a problem on one of the three computers on which I tested it.
2014/11/28 19:37:56
200bpm
gswitz
Craig,
 
You probably have a high end graphics card, no?
 
I'm guessing the additional processing may be around the GUI. From the look of 200bpm's video, it t like he has a weaker computer than you and I do. Like you, I have a whole bunch of those processor meters. Looks like 200bpm has only 4. Is it possible he's doing his graphics off the mother board?
 
I think for us, the graphics work wouldn't show up on our meters because it would be offloaded to the GPU.
 
Is there someone out there without a nice graphics card who could replicate this behaviour that 200bpm is showing?
 
200bpm, as an alternative, you could simple route out to your interface and loopback in. You'll have to set the offset to be the same as is discovered by your external insert tool on the inserted track (ask if you don't know what I mean). This would help you bypass that overhead.




This is a decent computer.  It is a 3.6 PhenomII x4 which is almost as fast as the first generation of i7, which had 8 cores @ 2.3.  The graphics card is newer than the computer, I got it last year and forget which one it is, but its a fast gaming card.
 
System has been very stable yet when working with Sonar I keep discovering bugs.   
2014/11/28 19:40:03
gswitz
Cool, Craig. I was rushing because I had been called to dinner and I think it might be possible that your post 8 came after I started composing my post (10). We were thinking the same thing (you were testing what I was thinking and showing it to be an insufficient explanation).
 
I'm not sure if I misunderstand, but it sounds like maybe you are suggesting fixes like these...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Hey-People-Who-Know-About-Computers-Is-this-a-Fix-for-a-LOT-of-Sonar-Problems-m3086454.aspxi
 
Or something else computer specific? I'm not sure.
2014/11/28 19:50:12
gswitz
200bpm, I didn't mean to be diminutive regarding your computer. You can see Craig's has 12 cores. Mine has 8. Yours has 4. I was just reaching for things that might explain the difference without being able to sit at your computer and try to fix it for you.
 
I am curious, when you start a new project, can you replicate the change in processing measurement where there's nothing else in the project to impact things?
 
Also, next time you make a video, could you pop open the Preferences page and show your driver settings? Probably nothing in there that could help, but like noticing that you were recording at 16 bit (which you probably didn't mean to) maybe we could notice something helpful.
 
2014/11/28 19:53:56
200bpm
gswitz
 
I'm not sure if I misunderstand, but it sounds like maybe you are suggesting fixes like these...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Hey-People-Who-Know-About-Computers-Is-this-a-Fix-for-a-LOT-of-Sonar-Problems-m3086454.aspxi
 

Libraries can get out of sync, but it is the responsibility of the installer (InstallShield, etc.) to verify that the libraries are present and of sufficient version, and if not to install them.  Libraries should be backwards compatible so that upgrading does not break the "contract" with older applications and Microsoft sufficiently regression tests their releases that I have high confidence that new distributions will not break Sonar.   I'm a Unix developer so don't know the intricaces of the Windows registry or COM+, but its possible that a reinstall could fix bad/missing registry keys.   However, I just reinstalled Sonar a few days ago trying to solve another bug, so its unlikely that this will fix it.
 
At the point where you are manually installing system libraries to get your software to work, that usually indicates an installer bug.  Undocumented workarounds are bugs even if some people have hacked the software to work or been conditioned to avoid actions that cause it to fail.
2014/11/28 19:59:39
gswitz
Sorry, sounds like I grabbed the wrong link by what your saying. Oops. I meant to grab the link where grab talked about disabling unused audio devices in the device manager and somewhere else I forgot about already. Hold on... searching for the one I meant to post.
 
Yeah... I can't find it. I didn't mean to post the link about the C++ runtime.
 
Regarding the post I was looking for, I think Craig wasn't sure about the post when he made it and was going back and forth. He initially put it as his last tip of the month on the tip thread when it was only going to be 1 month of 1 tip a day. Then he just made it into a tips-as-they-come thread (which is very useful). I don't see what I'm looking for in there.
 
Basically, I'm useless, 200bpm. Idk what to suggest beyond what I have.
2014/11/28 20:30:01
johnnyV
 Forget it  Bad post 
2014/11/28 20:47:58
gswitz
@JohnnyV...
He says he's been recording in the box for years. He does own an expensive interface. I'm guessing he's within a couple of small tweaks (Jim I'm sure could help him there) to get his PC working properly. Personally, I'm out of ideas.
 
I agree that Craig is professional.
 
I also agree that 200bpm has been grouchy.
 
I can remember some grouchy days of my own, though. I'm hopeful he figures out how to make things work properly so he can use Sonar and his interface to make and mix great recordings.
2014/11/28 21:03:35
Anderton
gswitz
Sorry, sounds like I grabbed the wrong link by what your saying. Oops. I meant to grab the link where grab talked about disabling unused audio devices in the device manager and somewhere else I forgot about already. Hold on... searching for the one I meant to post.
 
Yeah... I can't find it. I didn't mean to post the link about the C++ runtime.



It's this one. I had already referenced it in another 200 bpm thread. I doubt he tried it, but it made a huge difference with my AMD HD graphics card and drivers. Ditto making sure it always has the latest drivers, but more importantly, knowing how to roll back to previous driver versions when you find the new driver that gives 2 frames per second better performance with the game "Let's Kill Everybody" also kills the performance for audio streaming. Well, at least until the next driver update, in three weeks. Which might render something else unusable. 
 
Others have reported equally huge differences by eliminating a card's HD audio driver; some have reported no detectable difference. So this technique is not guaranteed, but it's free, reversible, takes two minutes to check out, and if it reduces your latency so much the better.
 
It has taken me years of bashing on this, and buying/rejecting several graphics cards, but at least some people realize I'm not kidding when I emphasize how much graphics performance affects DAWs.
 
But - we have another potentially valuable clue. A "fast gaming graphics card" can be one of the absolute worst choices for a computer that needs to stream multiple channels of audio in real time. Some of their drivers will literally block the CPU from doing anything until the card gets what it wants. Some nVidia cards are known to do this. I found the AMD HD audio driver to be a total pig and completely unnecessary. Starting a couple months ago (come to think of it, around the time of a driver update) I had become so frustrated with SONAR's latency/crashing issues on my desktop I was debating whether to use SONAR only on my less powerful laptop, where it nonetheless worked fine. Deleting that one driver meant I could keep the fanless graphics card and continue to use SONAR on my desktop, with better performance than I'd ever experienced before. (FYI AMD's Catalyst Control Center program usually crashes within 15 minutes of booting my computer, but that's a good thing because it seems to perform no useful function other than ask for CPU cycles.) 
 
I seem to recall something about SONAR being more graphics-intensive than some other programs, so it's more dependent on system graphics performance.
 
To add insult to injury, those who purchased PCI-based interfaces to get that extra ounce of performance compared to USB or FireWire and who use PCI-based graphics cards are at the mercy of drivers that hog the PCI bus, and tell the PCI audio card to just sit there and shut up while it takes over the bus for as long as it wants.
 
I can't help but think of this analogy for at least some of the problems 200 bpm describes. He's lost his keys, and he's sure he's lost them in the kitchen. So he keeps looking in the kitchen. Someone says "Hey, maybe they're in the living room" but he's sure he lost them in the kitchen, so he keeps looking there. Finally, after hours of frustration he gives up on finding the keys, goes into the living room to watch some TV, and...finds the keys fell in between pillows on the couch.
 
The only way I know of to get around Windows variability is to get something like a PC Audio Labs, Studio Cat, ADK, or other Windows computer integrated for music. Or you can get a Mac, although unfortunately that experience sure isn't what it used to be. Logic is probably more similar to SONAR than most other DAWs, even though it lacks several key SONAR features.
2014/11/29 06:45:30
gswitz
I agree, Craig, that life can get easier if you can buy a purpose built daw.
 
(Also, I'm sorry for the typo in my post where I named you 'grab'. Obvious editing error by a very tired me.)
 
But fwiw, I used a desktop from around year 2000 to mix in Cakewalk at first.
 
Initially, I recorded everything on my Tascam 2488 and moved the waves to the computer for mixing in Cakewalk.
 
After a couple of years of this, I ached to do the recording straight in Cakewalk and came on the forum to try to get help doing so. I was a terrible grouch at first. I had a wife and young kid and spent what to me then was a small fortune to get an MAudio PCI Card and breakout cables (which were painfully expensive) and a couple of Art Tube Pres (one of which I still use). I loved the quality of sound when it worked, but the entrance was incredibly painful and anything but turnkey.
 
Nearly ten years later, mixing has really become part of my identity. I love it and spend ten hours a week watching the levels bounce. I was thinking it might make a good song... college stoner just watching meters bounce slowly stops being a stoner, but love for meters never fades. haha.
 
I do think the 200bpm is really close to being able to use his computer with Sonar.
 
I do think his computer is probably under-powered, but that doesn't mean he can't use it to make some awesome recordings. Heck, he has a great interface. He could just send everything to the interface and loop it all back in and mix it that way!! Using the RME Compressors and Reverbs wouldn't be at all slouchy. I'm thinking he'll probably have a better time of things when he can push his latency to the roof. That will enable him to give his computer as much breathing room as he can afford. Heck, I do this on my studio-cat when I'm not tracking.
 
Craig, fwiw, I'm very grateful for you and all your contributions. <I am just giving thanks.>
 
 
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