• SONAR
  • Any way of viewing the ProChannel in Track View? (p.3)
2014/11/27 08:38:45
gswitz
@Kylotan,
 
I haven't read everything everyone has said, but I noticed you've just come to X3 from 8.5 and I have some comments.
 
Firstly, what qualifies as 'Selected' has been confused by multi-touch work going on in the DAW. Personally, I think it has made knowing what's in the inspector a bit confusing.
 
For example,
1. select track A
2. modify the volume envelope on Track B
 
In this case your eye has shifted to track B. You are thinking about track B, but the item in the track inspector is still track A. It's Track A's Pro Channel.
 
What your scroll wheel on your mouse controls is sometimes confusing.
 
For Example,
1. click the volume fader in the track inspector. Move the scroll wheel and see the fader move.
2. move the mouse to hover over the tracks in the track view. Move the scroll wheel, see the PC in the inspector scroll. (you might have expected to scroll through the tracks). What you control is impacted by where you hover as well as the lass control with the focus. Where you hover alone or last focus alone do not guarantee behavior - only the combination of the two.
 
The scroll wheel has gotten a lot better since X1. There used to be cases where you might accidentally impact EQ settings, but this seems to have been solved. At this point, it's uncommon (but I won't say never yet) for me to accidentally impact volume or effect setting when I mean to scroll through tracks in track view.
 
Obviously, if you are in Console View using multi-touch, it doesn't make sense to have the Inspector try to follow all 10 faders at once. It can only have 1 channel in it at a time. Since you can use touch on 10 channels at a time, there needs to be a new paradigm. A new way to define when the content of the inspector changes.
 
For you, not using touch, this is only a hassle. It gets in the way of things and seems less than intuitive. I agree.
 
On the other hand, as we learn how the DAW works, having touch as a built in feature is pretty awesome (if you use it). I'm hoping there will be significant forward strides in the next version of Sonar.
 
And just so you know, we all feel your pain. We've all been there. And we're still adapting.
 
Multi-Touch makes live mixing silent (no mouse clicks or key strokes). If you float the browser, you can drag FX into the PC. You can modify all kinds of things with several fingers at a time. It's just way cool.
2014/11/27 09:20:43
Kylotan
John
With the CV in the Multidock you may want to resize it to show the full CV. Using D will toggle it open or minimized.



But if I can't see much of my Track view it's mostly useless. I work in Track View, always have, always will. If I have to make that barely an inch high to work with the ProChannel properly, I'm just not going to use the ProChannel.
2014/11/27 09:24:23
Kylotan
gswitz
Obviously, if you are in Console View using multi-touch, it doesn't make sense to have the Inspector try to follow all 10 faders at once. It can only have 1 channel in it at a time. Since you can use touch on 10 channels at a time, there needs to be a new paradigm. A new way to define when the content of the inspector changes.
 
For you, not using touch, this is only a hassle. It gets in the way of things and seems less than intuitive. I agree.
 
On the other hand, as we learn how the DAW works, having touch as a built in feature is pretty awesome (if you use it). I'm hoping there will be significant forward strides in the next version of Sonar.
 
And just so you know, we all feel your pain. We've all been there. And we're still adapting.



I'm glad it's working well for you. But I'm never going to have a multi-touch interface so this just muddies the waters for my workflow. Needing the Inspector for the ProChannel in Track View is awkward, making it an effort to ensure it's following the right track is just plain difficult. Most likely, if they push things further down this road, it'll be new DAW time for me.
2014/11/27 09:32:43
gswitz
I believe the big impacts to the mouse using community are already in place (been wrong before). There have been 2 years at least of Sonar Touch Development. X2 and X3 are both touch enabled. I would guess that if you can adapt to the changes as they stand, that you may be well positioned for the future, whether you adopt touch or not.
 
It would be a bummer to change to another DAW just to have to deal with that company trying to implement touch and all the lessons they'll learn. At least you've got 2 good years under the belt with Sonar. Lots of adjusting and fixing has brought things along fairly well. I use my mouse a ton btw (much more than I use touch). I use Track View all the time.
 
I have gotten pretty comfortable hitting D to show and hide the console view. One thing I've asked for is clip hold on the PC Clip Indicator so you can know if at any point in the track any of the plugs clip. That should be a pretty nice to have feature if it comes in X4 (here's to hoping).
2014/11/27 09:38:31
John
Kylotan
John
With the CV in the Multidock you may want to resize it to show the full CV. Using D will toggle it open or minimized.



But if I can't see much of my Track view it's mostly useless. I work in Track View, always have, always will. If I have to make that barely an inch high to work with the ProChannel properly, I'm just not going to use the ProChannel.


I do too.  I think all Sonar users work in the TV. That is a given. BUT when you are dealing with a PC module you are not working in the TV nor if it were a regular VST or DX plugin. They all require one to focus on them to do anything with them.  With the PC it is meant to hold multiple modules with a minimum of space taken. That is unlike a VST. Kontakt for example can take up the whole screen.  
 
No it is not useless at all. You think you must see everything at all times but really that is incorrect thinking. What you need is a way to see what you need to see when you need to see it.  Sonar has many ways to do just that. It always has. Now its far better than it was before. 
 
It may take some time to get the hang of things but it will seem natural after you have accustomed yourself to it.
 
And in the end some things simply are not going to work as you may wish. There is no way to see all the PCs at once without using the CV. 
 
2014/11/27 10:01:16
Kylotan
That's not really the crux of the issue. Of course, when I want to tweak settings that are optional (like effects or a synth), I will need to bring up more detailed values somewhere - whether that's a floating window, a docked one, or full screen. That's unavoidable. But what is important is that I know that effect or synth is in use. Every other aspect is visible just at a glance from the track view - I can see if I have an EQ patched in (though I may not know the exact settings), I can see if the track is muted, I can see which bus it routes to, I can see what it is called, I can see if it's an audio or synth channel, I can see how it's panned, and what the output level is.
 
I cannot see whether there are any ProChannel modules inserted.
 
That requires clicking on that track and looking elsewhere. Yes, it's just one click. But it's one extra click, every time I want to see that information, for every track I want to see it for. eg. Do I have an EQ on all my rhythm guitar tracks? If they're in the FX bin, I can see that at a glance, and will guess that they're on the same settings. With ProChannel, I have to click through each one to see, or switch to Console View and scroll. Then I have to remember that in future because there's no visual cue.
 
What I need is a way to see, at a glance, what is inserted on a track, and on neighbouring tracks for comparison, while I am editing and playing the tracks. I can do this perfectly with the ProChannel the only significant exception.
 
Sure, "There is no way to see all the PCs at once without using the CV." My initial question was answered a few posts back and I accept the fact that it does not work the way I would like, and therefore I will probably just avoid the ProChannel as a result. On Sonar's part, I don't see a good reason why they don't have the option to have the small ProChannel box in Track View in the same way that the small FX box appears there. That would at least provide some visual indication that the PC is engaged for that track.
2014/11/27 10:17:10
John
A feature request may be in order. 
2014/11/27 10:22:55
FastBikerBoy
What I need is a way to see, at a glance, what is inserted on a track, and on neighbouring tracks for comparison, while I am editing and playing the tracks. I can do this perfectly with the ProChannel the only significant exception.

 
It's taking a while to figure out exactly what you want......but don't give up on screensets so easily. They are very, very versatile. Does this one help?
 

 
 
Lots of track view. PC for each track/buss visible at the bottom (optional - could be top). Track selection can be done from the PC or track view.
 
Those without a PC are MIDI tracks obviously.
 
If it does I'll post up the steps on how to reproduce that. If it doesn't be even more specific and I'll have another go.
 
 
 
2014/11/27 11:56:00
Anderton
First, I NEVER used Console view in 8.5. Ever. Now with X3, I use it all the time thanks to the D shortcut. I set the console just high enough so I can see the timeline and markers. If I want to see clips, I hit D. I also find things iike offset mode more convenient in CV, as well as the ability to hide the MIDI tracks easily through the synth's folder track and just deal with the audio.
 
I guess my main question is why you need to see which ProChannel modules are in a track. For me, the PC is 99% about EQ and dynamics. So I need to adjust those on a per-track basis, which makes the inspector ideal...select, adjust, move on, forget unless re-adjustment is needed later.
 
If it's more about taking an "inventory" of which modules are in each track, you can collapse them and make the ProChannel equivalent of a "meter bridge" along the bottom. Granted you can't see all ProChannels on all tracks at one time, but with two monitors you can see at least 10 at a time, and at least five on a laptop. Don't forget that with Quick Grouping you can collapse and open all modules of a certain type at once.
 

 
And of course the Navigator is modal, so you can stick it anywhere. Personally, I use two monitors and have one view with the Track View in all its glory and the other with Console view expanded to its fullest, and switch between them with D. To me that's the best of both worlds, and as John said, allows me "to see what you need to see when you need to see it."
2014/11/27 12:05:16
Kylotan
FastBikerBoy
It's taking a while to figure out exactly what you want......but don't give up on screensets so easily. They are very, very versatile. Does this one help?
 

 
 

Closer! Now add in a couple of hundred pixels for the Navigator at the top... and make each track taller so that slip editing and fading isn't a game of hunt-the-pixel, and we're better off. (Still, you can see how ridiculous it is to need to have a separate window just for the ProChannel with everything else on the left. :) )
 
Also, what's your resolution? That screen looks taller than mine.
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