• SONAR
  • How to send a track to another track on sonar X3 (p.2)
2014/11/17 15:18:15
southpaw3473
Jeff Evans
 
The main advantage of this feature is when you get involved somehow with either a virtual instrument or a mix while it is playing.  (just like the old days!)  Hey think of all those fellas standing around making moves when they mixed Dark Side of the Moon.  I believe many had their hands on the mixing console at some point.


That's my feeling as well.
2014/11/17 15:22:51
John
How is real time mix down to a track faster than fast bounce?
2014/11/17 15:37:37
Jeff Evans
John
How is real time mix down to a track faster than fast bounce?


No one said it was.  But what this allows is human intervention with a live real time mix.  Something many have forgotten about.  Bit like VU meters!!
 
I have got a few virtual instruments too that feature random operations as they play ie they never play the same way twice.  Fast bouncing does not work too well with these.
2014/11/17 15:39:12
Sylvan
SONAR has live bounce capabilities if desired.
2014/11/17 15:43:57
Jeff Evans
Sylvan
SONAR has live bounce capabilities if desired.


Yes but can you make changes along the way.  I think you may find you can't.  Not sure with Sonar of course but with Studio One if I ask it to do a real time bounce it does it fine in real time except you cannot change anything or make any moves along the way.  They lock you out!  This is where the buss to track feature comes into its own because you can then.
 
 
2014/11/17 15:49:46
Anderton
Jeff Evans
Just because Craig you cannot think of an application, does not mean it does not exist. It is a bit like clip gain changes actually changing waveforms. It IS handy and useful and fast.  And so is this too.  Faster. 

 
I didn't say an application, I said a use case where this would be essential. I come up with applications all the time that don't have an essential use case
 
One is where a virtual synth may actually do something different every time you use it in real time. eg either driven from a pre recorded midi part or you fiddling with it live as it plays.
 
If you're fiddling with it, you can record those automation moves. If it does something different every time it plays, you don't know what it's done until you've recorded it...and if you bounced it, you wouldn't know what it did until the bounce was over. So I guess the advantage of recording it is if you didn't like what you heard, you could stop immediately and start over rather than wait for a bounce to complete. Personally, if it did something different each time I might or might not like, I'd just bounce it five times and splice together the best bits.
 
Another is where you might actually be mixing and making moves over some tracks or buses live while a mix is going down. It's handy to be able to route the main stereo buss back to a track as well.  You should be putting some human element into your mix ie making moves. It always sounds better to me.  It sounds better than sitting back and letting the computer do all the work.



So as I understand it, what you're saying is that you want to be able to record the real-time changes rather than audition the real-time changes and after getting it the way you like, bouncing. I can see that as a valid application, but for me, I still don't see it as essential because you can still make real-time changes and have them recorded in individual tracks, buses, and the master bus. What you describe is more immediate in the sense that if you like it, it has already been recorded rather than still needing to be bounced. Then again, if I did record something in real time, I'd still want to listen back to it to make sure that what "seemed like a good idea at the time" sounded good when listened to objectively. I don't need to do that if I've already had the chance to listen to something objectively, which is what happens before the bounce. To each his own...to me it seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if I'm missing something.
 
Wasn't it George Carlin who said something along the lines of "Some say the glass is half-full, some say it's half-empty. I say they need a different-sized glass."
 
 
2014/11/17 15:57:20
Anderton
Jeff Evans
But what this allows is human intervention with a live real time mix.  Something many have forgotten about.  Bit like VU meters!!



I don' t understand how using a control surface doesn't allow for human intervention with a live, real-time mix. It seems to me that recording the actual audio from the mix in real time isn't significantly different from recording automation moves in real-time that reproduce those results as audio.
 
In other words, a real-time mix is a real-time mix. The only difference is whether you record it in real time or render it later. In either case, you'll need to evaluate the mix. In terms of time, the only difference is whether you audition before rendering, or audition after recording. Am I missing something?
 
2014/11/17 16:20:18
John
Jeff you said it unless I misunderstood you.  "It IS handy and useful and fast. And so is this too. Faster." There is nothing fast about real time anything.
 
 
2014/11/17 16:27:18
John
Anderton
Jeff Evans
But what this allows is human intervention with a live real time mix.  Something many have forgotten about.  Bit like VU meters!!



I don' t understand how using a control surface doesn't allow for human intervention with a live, real-time mix. It seems to me that recording the actual audio from the mix in real time isn't significantly different from recording automation moves in real-time that reproduce those results as audio.
 
In other words, a real-time mix is a real-time mix. The only difference is whether you record it in real time or render it later. In either case, you'll need to evaluate the mix. In terms of time, the only difference is whether you audition before rendering, or audition after recording. Am I missing something?
 


I do this all the time. I would not want to fiddle with my Mackie Control while I am recording. 


 
One reason is though I am fast with my faders often times I need to go back and fine tune the automation with the mouse. I have come to view the use of the MC as sort of a rough mix until I have time to go through it and better define my nodes.  Doing this in real time while recording would be most difficult. 
 
In this case I am talking about audio only. Whether there is a use for recording a synth's output or not is a different subject. 
2014/11/17 16:55:27
Jeff Evans
John I would not be altering much during the recording process either if it were incoming audio signals. In terms of recording I am only referring to manipulating virtual instruments mainly only. Something I realise many don't necessarily do. (including me too) Craig this is still way faster than recording a whole lot of automation moves as well on a virtual synth. Slow.  Many times I can just grab some parameters of a virtual synth and get exactly what I want to hear in one pass! Nothing beats that. For example in one pass I might tweak 5 parameters on the fly.
 
The speed comes in when if you are doing a mixdown and you make the right moves (especially if you are very good at making moves!) then it's done and dusted right at the point. Nothing faster than that either!  Checking it is not always necessary either.  I can usually tell if the live moves have worked out fine as I am doing it.  Of course if I screw it up then I stop and go back and start again.  I am talking pressure situations too where many are not under.
 
It is a bit like the waveform in clip gain changes thing too. It is faster, period. Other DAW's are offering these features (track routing) so there is something in it. Lots of people have asked for it and many DAW's have provided it that is all.  It is not a useless feature. Just like the clip gain waveform changes. Not useless, but very useful.
 
I may be silly on this but I just feel when human intervention has occurred in a real time mixdown it sounds better for some reason. Placebo effect maybe considering I was the one that did it! There are few serious Melbourne engineers around here that actually agree with me that one too.  Controlling a mix live with a control surface is fine too.  Actually you will probably find if you talk to the best mix engineers on the planet they will all the same thing. They don't automate the whole thing and sit back. That is a bit lazy in my opinion.  They actually move faders on mixdown.
 
Also I certainly do automate lots too, I just leave a handful of important things for live tweaking. eg vocals. There is just something about human touch on the faders (vocals especially) as the song progresses that is hard to replace for me that is all.
 
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