I've tried to keep up with what all the dedicated music notation programs offer, an ever more difficult task.  Likewise, every time there are threads like this it makes me want to demo other DAW software.  Music notation is critical to me, and it is critical to some other users here, and likely to others no longer here. 
 
I don't know where it was ever determined accurately that SONAR users would rather Cakewalk put effort into other features over staff view.  And even if you concede that (which I don't), I still believe notation is critical in the decisions schools and colleges make when outfitting music labs, making it critical for Cakewalk's marketing of SONAR. 
 
Inertia is strong to remain with the software you know.  Perhaps that's why I'm still with SONAR after a decade of disappointment in staff view.

michael diemer
Folks, I'm doing you a favor here. Reaper is fast becoming the most versatile DAW on the planet. Now they are working on a Linux Native Edition. I don't know whether they can pull that off, as getting VST's to work in Linux is notoriously difficult, but I wouldn't bet against them. Cakewalk should at least be trying to keep up. I get it that Mr. Frankl is filthy rich and can do what he wants without worrying about profit. And yet, that philosophy has rocketed Reaper to being one of the leading DAWs out there (I recently saw somewhere that they were number two).
 
I still use Sonar (used it last night), so I have every right to compare Sonar and Reaper, and if that makes me a bumptious blowhard, so be it (by the way, nice alliteration). 
 
I won't even try to answer The Craig's points, he will annihilate me with his grasp of market forces, the history of music software, etc. His points are all well taken and completely valid. And yes, I was using rhetorical language, because I wanted to make a point. I used and loved Sonar since the late 90's. Tried other DAWS, but kept coming back. Finally, the streamlined efficiency of Reaper, and their willingness to always break new ground, sold me. They are getting close to the Holy Grail of music creation software, namely the seamless integration of notation and DAW. I still use Notion for dedicated score work, but I have a feeling that it won't be long before I can do it all in Reaper. I know that Cakewalk at this point is not going to match what Cockos has done with notation, but it would still be a good idea to upgrade their staff view, if only to prevent further defections. So guys, you can be defensive, call me names, whatever. But as I said, I'm really doing you a favor by giving my honest opinion, based on using both programs. Dismiss it if you want, but why not use it as learning experience?

how would you be doing "us" a favor ? What might be good for you isn't for everyone else.
I've tried Reaper plenty of times and my band mate uses it. but it cant do what I want it to when it comes to doing things right in the box. matter of fact there are many areas at which reaper lacks where sonar excels.
unless your talking about ease of stretching audio, then yes I prefer reaper for that.
 
But this thread is about notation and if your serious about notation then use a notation editor.
you really think investing in reaper for notation is worth it  ?
if you said Cubase or logic I might have agreed but sorry cant say I would invest in reaper simply for its notation features (hoping someday they add more to it) you would be in the same boat as you are here with sonar.

I began my musical meanderings at a very early age with classical piano training. That said, notation is extremely important to me. On the other hand, very few musicians in my area know what they're even looking at when you put a piece of sheet music in front of them. That on top of the fact that DAWs have made learning a musical instrument unnecessary has really taken the importance of actually reading and writing music on paper to a record low!!!!
That being said, I, too, miss the note value window. I am happy ReWiring Notion and Sonar when needed. It would be more convenient if the Staff View worked but it doesn't and probably never will.

michael diemer
Folks, I'm doing you a favor here. Reaper is fast becoming the most versatile DAW on the planet. But as I said, I'm really doing you a favor by giving my honest opinion, based on using both programs. Dismiss it if you want, but why not use it as learning experience?

 
I gave reaper a try some time ago, and in fact went back to their site after reading your post. The deal breaker for me is no playlist feature for live performance. In fact, Sonar is still the only DAW that has a fully functional playlist feature that allows for the loading of multiple multi track backing projects on the fly (Abelton Live has many live performance features, but still lacks this). After all these years I am still surprised Cakewalk don't me a bigger deal of ths feature. In the days of DOS, Cakewalk actually had a stand alone player (Cakelive for DOS) that was no doubt the predecessor of this feature.

michael diemer
Folks, I'm doing you a favor here. Reaper is fast becoming the most versatile DAW on the planet. Now they are working on a Linux Native Edition. I don't know whether they can pull that off, as getting VST's to work in Linux is notoriously difficult, but I wouldn't bet against them. Cakewalk should at least be trying to keep up. I get it that Mr. Frankl is filthy rich and can do what he wants without worrying about profit. And yet, that philosophy has rocketed Reaper to being one of the leading DAWs out there (I recently saw somewhere that they were number two).
 

http://vi-control.net/community/threads/who-is-using-reaper-for-film-scoring.59532/
 
I thought that was an interesting thread since some are thinking of going with Reaper while dumping Cubase.

chuckebaby
 
notation features (hoping someday they add more to it) you would be in the same boat as you are here with sonar.

i would disagree, the 'boats' are completely different, for all intents and purposes cakewalks/sonars notation is dead in the water, on the other hand reapers is alive and vibrant, being actively and vigorously improved upon and added to, big difference.
 
as to not being able to do something in reaper that you can in sonar, i would say one should not be to quick to judge until one has learned how to use reaper, which on the surface may be not as easy as other daws, and therein lies a big part of the problem imo. now reaper isn't my main daw, neither is sonar, but from my experience, reaper is one of the most powerful daws around, if not the most powerful, (certainly configurable) and capable of doing pretty much anything. if i had to choose between sonar and reaper today, i would choose sonar, but if reaper fixed up it's issues with menus, gui, ease of use perhaps etc, bringing it into line with other daws in that area, to the point where it is no longer refered to as 'the linux of the daw world', then my choice between sonar and reaper would be reaper without a second thought.
 
just my opinion and how i see it
 
oh, and i couldn't care less about notation/staff view etc, if it disappeared tomorrow it would be no skin off my nose, but it would be good if it were there for those who want it, and most likely benefit cakewalk/sonar to boot
 
 

Sidroe
I began my musical meanderings at a very early age with classical piano training. That said, notation is extremely important to me. On the other hand, very few musicians in my area know what they're even looking at when you put a piece of sheet music in front of them. That on top of the fact that DAWs have made learning a musical instrument unnecessary has really taken the importance of actually reading and writing music on paper to a record low!!!!
That being said, I, too, miss the note value window. I am happy ReWiring Notion and Sonar when needed. It would be more convenient if the Staff View worked but it doesn't and probably never will.

 I respect this.
I am from the old school as well. where I did learn to read and write music from an early age.
But I simply found an easier way to do it using the piano roll view. with the way I work, its just faster.. but hey, im not everyone so I can understand where your coming from.
 
I felt a similar way when samples because a songwriters main instrument.
I don't use samples to write my music. I play stringed instruments and write out all my synths, drum parts, piano parts by free hand in notation or in the PRV. I hear a song built with samples and I feel like someone took the easy road.
 
However, this is simply a change in the times. things are changing and as much as I hate to admit it, notation isn't the preferred method anymore and you know what is ? Painting by numbers in the PRV .
It is sad but like I said, its the change in times and we either adapt to it...or be consumed by it.
 
Here's hoping they throw at least a bone to the hard core SV users.
 
Best,
Chuck

The Grim

chuckebaby
 
notation features (hoping someday they add more to it) you would be in the same boat as you are here with sonar.

 
as to not being able to do something in reaper that you can in sonar, i would say one should not be to quick to judge
 

ARA integration: Audio random access
 
Reaper doesn't have it and it is a gift to have it at your fingertips.
If you have ever used Melodyne in another DAW you know exactly what I mean.

sonar doesn't have ripple editing, reaper has had it for years . . . so what?
 
i use studio one, i find it's ara integration to be superior . . . so what?
 
all this is by the by
 
you can still do what you want, it may take different paths, i never found anything i wanted to do in reaper that i couldn't accomplish, and it maybe what is considered a 'workaround', but one can't sneer at work around's especially sonar users
 
here is what i originally wrote for the above post, but decided not to post, it's not meant to be inflammatory or anything, and no disrespect to your good self, just how i see it.
 

chuckebaby


notation features (hoping someday they add more to it) you would be in the same boat as you are here with sonar.

i would disagree, the 'boats' are completely different, for all intents and purposes cakewalks/sonars notation is dead in the water, on the other hand reapers is alive and vibrant, being actively and vigorously improved upon and added to, big difference.


as to your issue with not being able to do certain things in reaper, well in my experience that may not be down to reaper not being able to do it, but you not knowing how to achieve it in reaper. sure there maybe things, (just examples) you may say drum replacement, mix recall etc. but all these things can be done in reaper, you may need a plugin (essentially drum replacer is a plugin built into sonar, perhaps not literally, but ykwim) mix recall (i tried mix recall way back, to me it's next to useless because it is just to slow, among other things, if it were hit the button/done, then ok, but for me i'll do it another way if need be), well there are ways you can achieve the same thing in reaper or almost any other daw, sure it would be via a 'workaround', but you can't go poo pooing something for being a workaround (not that you are, just speaking generally), especially being a sonar user with the myriad of workarounds required within sonar to make things work that should work but don't, lets face there are many, and look at the fridays tip of the week thread for examples of 'workarounds' for sonar to achieve things it can't otherwise, that other daw's can.


reaper is not my main daw, neither is sonar, but from my experience reaper is one of the most powerful daw's around, if not the most powerful, it's just that stuff may not be immediately obvious to the user, as it were, or as it may be perceived, hidden away in some menu or some dusty corner etc, which in itself may rightly be considered a failing, but then again look at how many times people are told here that they should learn how to use sonar correctly, well same thing there, fair is fair. but don't make the mistake of underestimating reapers power.


i don't care about who makes what daw, am not emotionally attached to a daw, or a company, or a forum, i don't owe any daw or company anything, they owe me nothing except for giving me what i payed for, if another daw pops up tomorrow which rings my bell more than what i currently use i'm there. switching daw's for the most part is a breeze, you are up and running immediately, somethings you may need to lookup, learn as you go, but it doesn't take long. lifes to short to be stuck with something second rate
 
 

on the topic of notation, and to go with the 'boat' analogy, sonars notation/staff view is like a ship adrift on the dead sea, floating around listlessly, surrounded by pyramids and ancient civilizations, as apposed to reapers which is sailing full speed ahead across the atlantic to the brave new world 

The Grim
sonar doesn't have ripple editing, reaper has had it for years . . . so what?
 
i use studio one, i find it's ara integration to be superior . . . so what?
 
all this is by the by
 
you can still do what you want, it may take different paths, i never found anything i wanted to do in reaper that i couldn't accomplish, and it maybe what is considered a 'workaround', but one can't sneer at work around's especially sonar users
 
here is what i originally wrote for the above post, but decided not to post, it's not meant to be inflammatory or anything, and no disrespect to your good self, just how i see it.
 

chuckebaby


notation features (hoping someday they add more to it) you would be in the same boat as you are here with sonar.

i would disagree, the 'boats' are completely different, for all intents and purposes cakewalks/sonars notation is dead in the water, on the other hand reapers is alive and vibrant, being actively and vigorously improved upon and added to, big difference.


as to your issue with not being able to do certain things in reaper, well in my experience that may not be down to reaper not being able to do it, but you not knowing how to achieve it in reaper. sure there maybe things, (just examples) you may say drum replacement, mix recall etc. but all these things can be done in reaper, you may need a plugin (essentially drum replacer is a plugin built into sonar, perhaps not literally, but ykwim) mix recall (i tried mix recall way back, to me it's next to useless because it is just to slow, among other things, if it were hit the button/done, then ok, but for me i'll do it another way if need be), well there are ways you can achieve the same thing in reaper or almost any other daw, sure it would be via a 'workaround', but you can't go poo pooing something for being a workaround (not that you are, just speaking generally), especially being a sonar user with the myriad of workarounds required within sonar to make things work that should work but don't, lets face there are many, and look at the fridays tip of the week thread for examples of 'workarounds' for sonar to achieve things it can't otherwise, that other daw's can.


reaper is not my main daw, neither is sonar, but from my experience reaper is one of the most powerful daw's around, if not the most powerful, it's just that stuff may not be immediately obvious to the user, as it were, or as it may be perceived, hidden away in some menu or some dusty corner etc, which in itself may rightly be considered a failing, but then again look at how many times people are told here that they should learn how to use sonar correctly, well same thing there, fair is fair. but don't make the mistake of underestimating reapers power.


i don't care about who makes what daw, am not emotionally attached to a daw, or a company, or a forum, i don't owe any daw or company anything, they owe me nothing except for giving me what i payed for, if another daw pops up tomorrow which rings my bell more than what i currently use i'm there. switching daw's for the most part is a breeze, you are up and running immediately, somethings you may need to lookup, learn as you go, but it doesn't take long. lifes to short to be stuck with something second rate
 
 

on the topic of notation, and to go with the 'boat' analogy, sonars notation/staff view is like a ship adrift on the dead sea, floating around listlessly, surrounded by pyramids and ancient civilizations, as apposed to reapers which is sailing full speed ahead across the atlantic to the brave new world 

So why is it you are here?