I agree, unfortunately. No significant fixes for seven years means promises at this point aren't really any good, although I understand where Craig is coming from and how frustrating it must be to see people complaining when you feel the solution is in the works. Action>words.

db66murray

Anderton
I need to re-emphasize that SV is not a forgotten or dead topic at Cakewalk. There are frequent discussions as to how best address this issue, with the main problems being that any potential solutions (including doing only a makeover of the existing SV) are a) mutually exclusive, b) have unique drawbacks that are difficult to circumvent, and c) Cakewalk cannot afford to make an expensive mistake, so any options have to be studied exhaustively. It's sometimes better to do nothing than do something wrong.
 
To give you an idea of how undead this topic is, today I was updated on a potential solution that I stumbled upon last summer and passed along to CW for consideration. That doesn't mean a solution is closer or further away. But it seems many people believe Cakewalk doesn't care and isn't actively pursuing a solution. That speculation has no basis in reality.
 

I realize I'm coming late to the discussion, but why did Cakewalk make a deliberate decision to break Staff View in the first place?

It's never been elegant, but at least what was there used to work. I'm not even talking about reassigning long-established shortcuts to do something else. That's annoying enough, but I'm just talking about just clicking on the screen and having notes appear where I place them.

I have Finale, but I still find Staff View in Sonar 8.5 to be the fastest way to get notes on the screen short of playing them and recording the MIDI data live. Staff View in Platinum, by comparison, is pretty much useless. 

It still works.  It really does.  I use it regularly.  I have more problem with the culture and the company than I do with the staff view.  I wrote to Noel Borthwick twice, not even a brief email as to acknowledge receipt of my email, even though I've been buying Sonar products for 25 years.  Most of my problem reports go unfixed for years, although I give them credit for fixing some of the issues, including some staff view issues.   Now I wonder if they will fix the paste-special bug, which precludes me from moving to the latest version.   They most likely will never fix the tied and dotted triplet issue, that's why at least two people I know have moved to Reaper. 
 
Getting rid of the note icons really is not a big deal at all.  Just use keybindings to create the note values, it's easier and, actually, it involves fewer keystrokes than choosing a note icon from the screen. 
 
q=quarter note
e=eighth note
s= sixteenth note
etc.
Shift + q= dotted quarter, etc.
Ctrl + q = triplet quarter, etc...
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 

jsg
 
It still works.  It really does. 

It really doesn't. 
https://youtu.be/_iUyOlVQB_0

https://youtu.be/OTREpd8iSqU
 
 

db66murray

jsg
 
It still works.  It really does. 

It really doesn't. 
https://youtu.be/_iUyOlVQB_0

https://youtu.be/OTREpd8iSqU
 
 

I watched the videos.  The snap feature works the same way in Digital Performer.  Have you tried watching the cursor location box while doing the insert, which tells you exactly where you're placing the note?   The snap feature could be improved, although some like it the way it is because if you want to put half note a 16th note into a beat you can.  I am running Platinum 22.7 and when I insert an a4 as you did I can easily place a middle c underneath it.  Not sure why you're having that issue and I am not.
 
Don't misunderstand, the staff view desperately needs some bug fixing, including giving the musician the option to turn snap on or off and have the note pop into the right part of the beat easily.  As I said, there is some advantage by not having that because you can place a longer note-value into a part of the beat rather than on the beat.   There should be that option.   Don't give up.  Every DAW I've tried, including, Reaper, Digital Performer and Cubase has issues with the staff view.  Those who expect notation in a DAW to replace a real notation program are going to be disappointed for a long time.  My view is more realistic:  The staff view is a MIDI editor, as are the event list and the PRV.  I'm not approving of the way Cakewalk drags its feet in regards to fixing and improving it (like the 20 year old tied- and dotted-triplet issue), but I am saying that the staff view, as is, is completely functional and usable, otherwise how would you explain how I produced these recent works (all done in notation view):
 
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Music%20for%20Twelve%20Instruments.mp3
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/In%20Time%20There%20Will%20Be%20No%20Time.mp3
http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Ninth%20Symphony%203rd%20movement.mp3
 
Jerry

jsg
Don't misunderstand, the staff view desperately needs some bug fixing, including giving the musician the option to turn snap on or off and have the note pop into the right part of the beat easily. 

Sonar does have that setting. It just doesn't work. I had it set to "snap to" quarter notes, but as you can see, it only goes by 32nd notes.

jsg
As I said, there is some advantage by not having that because you can place a longer note-value into a part of the beat rather than on the beat.   There should be that option. 

 
Yes, changing the setting under "snap to" to 32nd notes should create the current behavior...or turning "snap" completely off should allow you to insert notes at any tick. 
 

jsgDon't give up.  Every DAW I've tried, including, Reaper, Digital Performer and Cubase has issues with the staff view.

 
Sonar 8.5 doesn't, at least not on this level. 

jsg
 Those who expect notation in a DAW to replace a real notation program are going to be disappointed for a long time.  My view is more realistic

 
I've never said I expect it to replace a real notation program. I simply expect a newer version of SONAR to continue to function at least as well as an older version of SONAR. That view is very reasonable and realistic. 

jsgThe staff view is a MIDI editor, as are the event list and the PRV.  I'm not approving of the way Cakewalk drags its feet in regards to fixing and improving it (like the 20 year old tied- and dotted-triplet issue), but I am saying that the staff view, as is, is completely functional and usable, otherwise how would you explain how I produced these recent works (all done in notation view):
 
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Music%20for%20Twelve%20Instruments.mp3
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/In%20Time%20There%20Will%20Be%20No%20Time.mp3
http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Ninth%20Symphony%203rd%20movement.mp3
 
Jerry

I admire your patience. You could have entered the same notes in about 1/10th of the time in SONAR 8.5. 

I should probably add for context that I have used Cakewalk all the way back to the time it was a MIDI-only program. My frustration here is not that of a brand new user. I haven't owned every version, but I have upgraded several times over the years. I bought X3, but never used it...finally bought Platinum when they offered the lifetime upgrade. I've owned at least five versions since the name was changed to Sonar, and had several pre-Sonar versions of Cakewalk as well. I don't criticize them lightly, but they utterly dropped the ball when they disabled the features of Staff View that had worked for a number of versions. 
 

db66murray

jsg
Don't misunderstand, the staff view desperately needs some bug fixing, including giving the musician the option to turn snap on or off and have the note pop into the right part of the beat easily. 

Sonar does have that setting. It just doesn't work. I had it set to "snap to" quarter notes, but as you can see, it only goes by 32nd notes.

jsg
As I said, there is some advantage by not having that because you can place a longer note-value into a part of the beat rather than on the beat.   There should be that option. 

 
Yes, changing the setting under "snap to" to 32nd notes should create the current behavior...or turning "snap" completely off should allow you to insert notes at any tick. 
 

jsgDon't give up.  Every DAW I've tried, including, Reaper, Digital Performer and Cubase has issues with the staff view.

 
Sonar 8.5 doesn't, at least not on this level. 

jsg
Those who expect notation in a DAW to replace a real notation program are going to be disappointed for a long time.  My view is more realistic

 
I've never said I expect it to replace a real notation program. I simply expect a newer version of SONAR to maintain the function of an older version of SONAR. That view is very reasonable and realistic. 

jsgThe staff view is a MIDI editor, as are the event list and the PRV.  I'm not approving of the way Cakewalk drags its feet in regards to fixing and improving it (like the 20 year old tied- and dotted-triplet issue), but I am saying that the staff view, as is, is completely functional and usable, otherwise how would you explain how I produced these recent works (all done in notation view):
 
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Music%20for%20Twelve%20Instruments.mp3
www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/In%20Time%20There%20Will%20Be%20No%20Time.mp3
http://www.jerrygerber.com/mp3/Ninth%20Symphony%203rd%20movement.mp3
 
Jerry

I admire your patience. You could have entered the same notes in about 1/10th of the time in SONAR 8.5. 

I used Sonar 7 for many years, pretty much same as 8.5 and I can tell you my experience is that it was not any faster.  When I first saw that CW removed the note icons I freaked out too, but after using keybindings I found that it's actually faster than having to click on a note icon. 
 
The global snap function has never applied to the staff view for some reason.   It's always had, as far back as I can recall, its own separate snap controls.   They don't work as they used to, that is true, I've filed multiple problem reports but CW is definitely one of the least responsive companies I've ever dealt with in regards to bug fixes. 
 
I look at it this way:  If I can find a better DAW I'd leave Sonar in a second.  But there really isn't one. Every single DAW has its bugs and ways of doing things that some will like and some will not.   But then again, is there anything or anyone in this world that has achieved perfection?  I think not. 
 
 
 

jsg
I used Sonar 7 for many years, pretty much same as 8.5 and I can tell you my experience is that it was not any faster.  When I first saw that CW removed the note icons I freaked out too, but after using keybindings I found that it's actually faster than having to click on a note icon. 

 
I never at any point mentioned the missing icons as being an issue. 
 
Older versions of Sonar had keybindings including 8.5 and before. I've used them for years. Tap 1 for a whole note, 2 for a half, 4 for a quarter, and tap a period to add dot note, etc. There was even a keyboard shortcut to switch on triplets. When I say it was faster, that's based on using the keyboard shortcuts. 

They did away with those as well as the icons, but I know how to restore some of that function with keybindings. Platinum already has a few of them set, but you now have to hold down ctrl and shift, which is more awkward than before. 
 
It's the lack of snap that's made the process of entering notes slower and more frustrating. 

And sure, I can look at the cursor box to see precisely where I'm placing the note, but that also is slower than having notes just snap right into place as long as I'm in the neighborhood of the right spot. If half notes only snapped to quarter notes, I wouldn't miss when clicking almost directly on the Now line. 
  

jsg
I look at it this way:  If I can find a better DAW I'd leave Sonar in a second.  But there really isn't one. Every single DAW has its bugs and ways of doing things that some will like and some will not.   But then again, is there anything or anyone in this world that has achieved perfection?  I think not. 

 
Again, you are making assumptions that have zero to do with my complaint. I don't expect it to be perfect. As I said before, I simply expect the functions that were in the previous version to continue to work as well as they did before. Changing some things around is absolutely fine, but when it's changed and I can no longer use it at all like before, that's when I complain. 

jsg
 
I am running Platinum 22.7 and when I insert an a4 as you did I can easily place a middle c underneath it.  Not sure why you're having that issue and I am not.

You might want to avoid downloading the latest version. I am running 22.12, and I've tried it on two different computers to see if it was some sort of fluke that was unique to one machine. 

For those that are really serious about notation why don't you use a program that actually specialises it. Have you checked out Steinberg Dorico yet. The review of it is pretty convincing.
 
Also I would imagine that Studio One with Notion attached would be far better than anything Sonar is offering right now too.