jsg

michael diemer

vintagevibe
Staff View is dead.  No matter what Cakewalk says publicly it will never be addressed.  People need realize that.  This same thread has appeared in every release cycle since the 90's.  If you depend on notation Sonar is the wrong DAW.  There are other programs that have functional staff views that have not been abandoned.  

I know about Cubase. Are there other DAWS that have a decent staff view?

DP's staff view is OK, but it too cannot handle either dotted or tied triplets correctly (one or the other, Sonar doesn't display either correctly).   Cubase's staff view has many more options than Sonar's, but to me it's very clunky and I don't like the interface.   Most of Cubase's notation features assume the user wants to print edited scores so lots of markings are included.  I don't need that, I print my scores from Sibelius,  I just want a decent notation midi editor.  I don't know anything about Logic and though Pro Tools notation view is using some Sibelius technology PT still doesn't support any VST so I don't want to buy into that system.  Finally Sonar has the capacity to have multiple staff view opens at the same time--no other DAW can do this, it is an amazing time saver to have my winds, brass, percussion, synths and strings all in different windows where I don't have to be constantly switching individual instruments within one view.  That's why I put up with Sonar's notation, plus the fact that there are so many things about Sonar I love, including the event list, which is better than DP and Cubase.
 
One user keeps insisting that "if you are using Sonar for notation you're using the wrong program".  He's totally wrong.  Go to the link below and  listen to some of my work done in the Sonar staff view--it works, it just needs some bug fixes. I've produced 11 albums and 8.5 symphonies (working on new one!) with staff view, so I know what it can do and I know its limitations. It just needs some bug fixes.
 
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony9.htm

I think one of the difficulties will be to not "break" anything that is already working and piss off users like Jerry who are "basically" happy and productive with the tool (except for the existing bugs). The root issue as I see it is that how users would use Staff View varies according to what they do and what they need. While I read music well, I am more comfortable editing in PRV than in staff view, and only use staff view as a context view of a fairly basic arrangement, and to print out a rudimentary lead sheet. I think a lot of users just want to be able to print out a captured performance once they get it right (for copyright reasons, etc.) For this reason (the fact that when it comes to staff view, users' needs are going to vary greatly) - Echoing Bill's opinion from a few days ago, I am hopeful that Cake's path forward (of on-going small fixes via a monthly membership) - will yield a better approach than would have been possible previously - i.e., start with fixing small bugs, bringing back icons, buttons, etc. that facilitated workflow, and working through those workflow issues  that might arise as a result of a change.

jsg
DP's staff view is OK, but it too cannot handle either dotted or tied triplets correctly (one or the other, Sonar doesn't display either correctly).   Cubase's staff view has many more options than Sonar's, but to me it's very clunky and I don't like the interface.   Most of Cubase's notation features assume the user wants to print edited scores so lots of markings are included.  I don't need that, I print my scores from Sibelius,  I just want a decent notation midi editor.  I don't know anything about Logic and though Pro Tools notation view is using some Sibelius technology PT still doesn't support any VST so I don't want to buy into that system.  Finally Sonar has the capacity to have multiple staff view opens at the same time--no other DAW can do this, it is an amazing time saver to have my winds, brass, percussion, synths and strings all in different windows where I don't have to be constantly switching individual instruments within one view.  That's why I put up with Sonar's notation, plus the fact that there are so many things about Sonar I love, including the event list, which is better than DP and Cubase.
 
One user keeps insisting that "if you are using Sonar for notation you're using the wrong program".  He's totally wrong.  Go to the link below and  listen to some of my work done in the Sonar staff view--it works, it just needs some bug fixes. I've produced 11 albums and 8.5 symphonies (working on new one!) with staff view, so I know what it can do and I know its limitations. It just needs some bug fixes.
 
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony9.htm

Impressive pdf of Symphony 9!

I've had the same experience as you.  I actually switched back to Sonar (left at 6? after they killed P5) after using RE** because it has (had) NO staff view, and I find Cubase clunky (not just in SV).  I find SONAR can do quite a bit (if it suits your workflow) and it's bug fixes and a few usability features that are needed.
 
 I considered DP, but it's too expensive vs what I have invested in SONAR (experience wise) and there would be too much "lost" for marginal gain in only a few areas.
 
 

vintagevibe

jsg
 
One user keeps insisting that "if you are using Sonar for notation you're using the wrong program".  He's totally wrong.  Go to the link below and  listen to some of my work done in the Sonar staff view--it works, it just needs some bug fixes. I've produced 11 albums and 8.5 symphonies (working on new one!) with staff view, so I know what it can do and I know its limitations. It just needs some bug fixes.
 
Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony9.htm

Hi Jerry how are you?  I applaud your ability to compose in Sonars staff view.  That speaks more to you ability and patience than the functionality of Sonar.  It is actually pretty amazing to me that you do such sophisticated work in Sonar's staff view but that doesn't mean that it is an easy or powerful tool compared to the the others.  The point that you are prolific in SV is not the issue here.  It is the capabilities of SV compared to other DAWS.  This thread shows that most people think it it needs work.  I know people who could build a house without power tools.  But I need power tools.  IMO if you depend on notation Sonar is not the best tool.  

I think Sonar's notation view IS easy to use, bugs aside.   I wouldn't and couldn't work in it as prolifically as I have if it were as difficult as you say it is.  Some say all DAW notation editors leave something to be desired, and if one's standard is a program like Sibelius, which is not a DAW or a production tool, but solely a notation program, they'd be right. 
 
There are many tricks in using Sonar's notation editor that I've discovered and invented over the years.  For example, if you lasso a selection of notes and move them, the controllers and patch information will not move with them.   But if you select the notes via F9 and F10, all the information is selected, including controller and patch information, and they all can be moved (or deleted, copied, etc.) together.   Also, setting up your main windows so that you have 3, 4 or more tabbed (and locked) staff views, will allow you to completely bypass the need to be constantly adding or subtracting instruments to the view.   Cubase and DP cannot do this. 
 
For those who want the note icons back, no problem there either.  I was dependent upon the note icons too and when I first saw they were missing I hated it.  But if you use your keybinding and bind all the notes to specific keys:
 
w = whole
h = half-note
q = quarter
etc. etc. 
 
Now you have a faster way to input notes, even faster than using note icons.  
 
Since music notation has evolved over a 1000 years and the fact that many of the finest musical compositions in the world could not have been created without it, I wish that Cakewalk would consider the cultural, artistic, intellectual and musical value of it and fix the bugs.   It will only make their software better.  They've spent the past 10 years trying to please those who don't use the staff view or don't care about it.  How about now devoting a few releases to improving the notation editor?   If CW does this, Sonar will be without question the finest DAW on the market and people will talk.
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 
 
 
 

jsg
 
I think Sonar's notation view IS easy to use, bugs aside.   I wouldn't and couldn't work in it as prolifically as I have if it were as difficult as you say it is.  Some say all DAW notation editors leave something to be desired, and if one's standard is a program like Sibelius, which is not a DAW or a production tool, but solely a notation program, they'd be right. 
 
There are many tricks in using Sonar's notation editor that I've discovered and invented over the years.  For example, if you lasso a selection of notes and move them, the controllers and patch information will not move with them.   But if you select the notes via F9 and F10, all the information is selected, including controller and patch information, and they all can be moved (or deleted, copied, etc.) together.   Also, setting up your main windows so that you have 3, 4 or more tabbed (and locked) staff views, will allow you to completely bypass the need to be constantly adding or subtracting instruments to the view.   Cubase and DP cannot do this. 

 
Jerry,
I admire you persistence. I really like your ninth.
But...
In the mid 70's I built my first computer. It had paddle switches on the front to thumb in address and data bit-by-bit and a write button to store the switch data. I wrote thousands of lines of code by keying in hex code...no assembler... direct hex code. I did this because nothing else was available.
I have no desire to EVER,EVER,EVER do anything like this again even though it is possible.
 

microapp

jsg
 
I think Sonar's notation view IS easy to use, bugs aside.   I wouldn't and couldn't work in it as prolifically as I have if it were as difficult as you say it is.  Some say all DAW notation editors leave something to be desired, and if one's standard is a program like Sibelius, which is not a DAW or a production tool, but solely a notation program, they'd be right. 
 
There are many tricks in using Sonar's notation editor that I've discovered and invented over the years.  For example, if you lasso a selection of notes and move them, the controllers and patch information will not move with them.   But if you select the notes via F9 and F10, all the information is selected, including controller and patch information, and they all can be moved (or deleted, copied, etc.) together.   Also, setting up your main windows so that you have 3, 4 or more tabbed (and locked) staff views, will allow you to completely bypass the need to be constantly adding or subtracting instruments to the view.   Cubase and DP cannot do this. 

 
Jerry,
I admire you persistence. I really like your ninth.
But...
In the mid 70's I built my first computer. It had paddle switches on the front to thumb in address and data bit-by-bit and a write button to store the switch data. I wrote thousands of lines of code by keying in hex code...no assembler... direct hex code. I did this because nothing else was available.
I have no desire to EVER,EVER,EVER do anything like this again even though it is possible.
 

If you guys really want to know about a notation program that was incredibly difficult to learn and use, try SCORE.  Score came out in 1988, it was created by Leland Smith at Stanford.  It was the first real notation program for the PC.  It worked under DOS and did not use any mouse or pointing device.  It took me 6 months to learn it and after using it for 10 years I was about to go completely lunatic.   For example, you want to change the curvature of a slur?   Easy, just type:
23 11 0 14 02 19 ENTER.   (you had to memorize these numbers or you'd be looking it up in the manual)
That's how cryptic it was.  Yet, it produced printed output that rivaled anything that Sibelius or Finale can do, the output was stupendous.   So, working with Sonar's notation editor, for me, is a breeze compared to something like that! 
 

Thanks to Jerry for the great info on SV in other DAWS. Count me as one who loves the SV, and uses it for midi editing like Jerry, and also, as has been mentioned, to print out a score that can then be sent to the Copyright office. So, above all, please Cakewalk, at least keep what you have! And if possible, yes, some incremental improvements would be great. But all in all I am happy with Sonar and although I sometimes squawk and threaten to leave, I never do. Sonar is a fantastic product, I can't really imagine using anything else. There's so much here that you can create your own workflow as needed. Use all of it, or just a bit, it's all there if you need it. Sonar is the BEST. Keep up the great work, folks.

Brando
While I read music well, I am more comfortable editing in PRV than in staff view, and only use staff view as a context view of a fairly basic arrangement, and to print out a rudimentary lead sheet.

Another poster made the suggestion of being able to view the PRV and SV in the same window, so I put that down as a feature.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Piano-View-and-Staff-View-in-the-same-Window-m3153522.aspx#3153522
 
I think this could be a great way of becoming more comfortable with what is happening in SV, whilst editing PRV.but also vice verca when thinking about harmony. I the past I have tried having both windows open at the same time, but it was fiddly.

So, I've been a Cakewalk user since it was on DOS. I do like to use notation view, so even though I've bought a copy of X3, I still primarily use an older version (8.5) because of the screwed notation view in X3. When I learned X4 had no fixes for the bugs I thought to look around to see what else was out there. I assumed I was on the cusp of becoming a Cubendo user, but came across this discussion in the Reaper forums:

 
Turns out Reaper is really putting some effort into a quality notation view for editing. I just downloaded a copy to try out. While I'm sure it's not fully baked, I just have to give up on Cakewalk ever fixing their software. I know they've mentioned the code is a mess and the guy who wrote it and understands it no longer works there, and I certainly understand they have their priorities (while the notation view might even be a priority to fix, the amount of manpower to actually fix it may be not worth it when they can add more shiny things to the program). But here's one user who, after more than twenty years with Cakewalk, won't be upgrading until they fix it.

Mark Ellis
Turns out Reaper is really putting some effort into a quality notation view for editing. 

Wow even Reaper has notation now?!?  So they feel it's important enough to start from scratch to add it.  Reaper, Avid, Presonus, MOTU, Steinberg, Magix and Apple/Logic think it's important but Cakewalk doesn't.  I don't get it.  
 
When Cakewalk for Windows 3.1 came out it was a feature of the program and the best notation on Windows at the time.   Then they orphaned it.  Very little was ever done since somewhere around 1992 ish.   

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Features
 
Explore Guitar Features in SONAR

"Chord Chart & Tab

Notate, compose, or print music with standard notation staff view and guitar tab - perfect for guitar students and teachers"
 
Explore Songwriting Features in SONAR

"Compose!

Score your music with SONAR’s integrated staff view - ideal for songwriters and composers"
 
 
O_o


http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/Features