• SONAR
  • No notation fixes! (p.18)
2015/01/22 21:55:30
jsg
rabeach
It is difficult at best not to be cynical when we have been waiting for almost two decades. SV worked better in pro audio 9 than it does now.




How so?  There have been minor improvements such as adding and eventually darkening the color of the staff view track pane, but everything else is pretty much the same.  The disappearance of note icons actually sped things up for me, using keybinding for note values turns out to be faster, although I still think they should return the icons because they're very useful too, and they offer visual cues.  That's the only real change I know of.
 
I think there are two camps here wanting changes to the staff view, the 1st camp, which I am in, sees the notation aspect of a DAW solely as a MIDI input and editing tool, one that satisfies a composer's need to visualize music in an evolutionarily successful symbolic language that has evolved over a millennium and that today is still highly relevant to music composition whether it be scores for film, TV or games, or Broadway, opera, orchestral and chamber music, religious and secular rituals, music education. It doesn't have to be too sophisticated, just display notes (including dotted and tied triplets of course) correctly, have a functional and flexible snap function and allow for easy access to note properties.  Maybe a display that could turn off and on patch/controller info on same screen would be nice, but not necessary. In this sense the function of the notation view and the PRV is quite similar:  to manipulate and add/remove midi data, controllers, patch changes, etc.   They display that data in very different ways.  
 
The other camp sees the notation editor also as a way to print out scores and parts to give to musicians.  Whether they read music or not, having a printed version of what you sequenced or recorded helps communicate ideas to others.  This is essentially asking software designers to combine the complexity, depth and ergonomics of Sonar with a powerful and comprehensive notation program like Sibelius.  I wish more musicians wanted something like that, but I think the ones that do don't constitute a large, global market.  We've never had that in the history of DAWS, and if some brave souls want to do that they sure win my respect.  But in reality, if you're writing for live players, do the score and parts in a notation program instead of a DAW, you'll be a lot happier. 
 
I hope the second camp understands that a dedicated notation program is not, at least up to now, a DAW, it is not a production tool, it is not designed for producing master CDs and/or wave files, nor to handle VST instruments and signal processors or to create a finished recording. Only a finished, publish-quality score and parts. 
 
No matter how useful the PRV may be to some, music notation allows for deeper contemplation and clarity of harmonies, harmonic progression, voice-leading and contrapuntal movement and orchestration.  Is that just my opinion or is it objectively true?   It is true for me, but verify for yourself, try to manage a simple four-part harmony exercise or a Bach choral in the PRV and then try it in the staff view.  
 
I realize that today's hip-hop, dance, rock, and numerous other styles and genres of pop music do not depend upon or need a written score.   That speaks to the power and flexibility of music itself--a piece does not need to be born in notated form to be a highly meaningful, expressive artistic experience.   My own bias tells me though that when a great musical composition is born as a notated score, it can contain qualities, subtleties, complexities and variations that would be difficult to give expression to without the written language of music.
 
Sooner or later, perhaps we'll see a DAW with the score capacities of a great notation program.  But in the meanwhile, I wish Cakewalk would re-do the snap function to make sense. 
 
JG
http://www.jerrygerber.com/symphony8.htm
http://www.jerrygerber.com
 
2015/01/23 00:52:25
michael diemer
Well said indeed by Jerry. I'm in the first group, we just need a good midi editing SV, with some modest improvements. a dedicated notation program will do the rest. Heed the voice of reason!
2015/01/23 01:03:04
swamptooth
I want a sv that can read these!!! http://blog.wfmu.org/free...1/gallery_of_musi.html
2015/01/23 01:55:01
cparmerlee
jatoth
All posts about Staff View eventually devolve into
 
"you really don't need it"
 
"Yes we do"
 
"Then buy a real notation program"
 
"Why can't they just work on this feature?"

Professional copyists and arrangers do use a separate notation program.  That isn't particularly a problem.  But what is needed is tighter convergence between the two worlds.  Today, with considerable effort, a person can dump his Finale score into MIDI and import that into a SONAR project.  From there you have to set up all the synths and then get busy editing MIDI as needed. 
 
That is a whole lot of work, and unless one is commissioned to produce a rendering that is practically indiscernible from a live orchestra or band, it just isn't worth the trouble, as I see it.
 
But if some of the tedium could be automated -- such as automatically selecting appropriate instruments, t least as a default starting set, that would change the effort/benefit ratio.  And along these lines, it would be very powerful to have a way to keep the two worlds linked (analogous to Rewire) where one could continue to update the notation score and have these changes reflected in the DAW.
 
The real problem is that it takes two to tango, and neither Finale nor Sibelius seems to even know that DAWs exist.  Steinberg, OTOH has a major effort underway to produce a new notation product that would compete directly with Finale and Sibelius.  One assumes that this new Steinberg product would naturally be more seamless between notation and DAW.  This is probably still years away.
 
2015/01/23 04:07:31
mudgel
vintagevibe
Mark Ellis
Turns out Reaper is really putting some effort into a quality notation view for editing. 



Wow even Reaper has notation now?!?  So they feel it's important enough to start from scratch to add it.  Reaper, Avid, Presonus, MOTU, Steinberg, Magix and Apple/Logic think it's important but Cakewalk doesn't.  I don't get it.  
 
When Cakewalk for Windows 3.1 came out it was a feature of the program and the best notation on Windows at the time.   Then they orphaned it.  Very little was ever done since somewhere around 1992 ish.   

Presonus has a notation Program called Notion. It is not integrated into their other software namely Studio One v2.6.5
2015/01/23 07:44:52
Sidroe
I bought Notion in the Cake store when it was only 32 bit. I was so happy with it that I jumped on the 64 bit version as soon as it came out. It is a great product for the money and I still say Cake dropped the ball when it didn't buy it out before Presonus. If the Bakers could have got their hands on that code and integrated it in as a part of Sonar we would be cooking! Anyway, Notion is great for the price. I see Progression 3 is rolling out at $20. Guitar tab notation for that price is a no brainer.
2015/01/23 08:37:38
vintagevibe
mudgel
vintagevibe
Mark Ellis
Turns out Reaper is really putting some effort into a quality notation view for editing. 



Wow even Reaper has notation now?!?  So they feel it's important enough to start from scratch to add it.  Reaper, Avid, Presonus, MOTU, Steinberg, Magix and Apple/Logic think it's important but Cakewalk doesn't.  I don't get it.  
 
When Cakewalk for Windows 3.1 came out it was a feature of the program and the best notation on Windows at the time.   Then they orphaned it.  Very little was ever done since somewhere around 1992 ish.   

Presonus has a notation Program called Notion. It is not integrated into their other software namely Studio One v2.6.5



Notion is already somewhat integrated into Studio One and they state they are working on more integration.
2015/01/23 09:03:29
microapp
I was looking at Reaper earlier this AM.
Personal or biz license (for < $500K biz income) is $60.
Free updates for same version number.
Their development does seem very aggressive. Updates sometimes every few days.
I think the free eval is 60 days.
Not 100% sure the current version has notation but it is coming soon.
 
2015/01/23 12:03:47
vintagevibe
microapp
I was looking at Reaper earlier this AM.
Personal or biz license (for < $500K biz income) is $60.
Free updates for same version number.
Their development does seem very aggressive. Updates sometimes every few days.
I think the free eval is 60 days.
Not 100% sure the current version has notation but it is coming soon.
 


One thing I don't get about Reaper.  It looks like their copy protection is basically the honor system.  I wonder how many "loyal customers" haven't paid for it.
2015/01/23 12:29:58
SONARtist
I didn't know this thread was still alive ...
 
But looking around, I found this from way back in 2009.  Although this is a hefty document put forward by around 80+ members (you may recognise yourselves, but regrettably some are no longer with SONAR), I just want to quote below the points which were made on notation, a very small section but with good ideas :-
=================
9 - Staff View Improvements

Staff View improvements including:


Easier way of inputing and editing notes including Tuplets, Triplets and other odd note groupings (i.e. 5's, 7's, 9's, 11's, etc).

Inclusion of more Dynamic & Expression markings with corresponding Velocity and Controller Lanes.
Also an Articulations Lane.
Expressions and Articulations mapping to keyswitches.
Better Chord input.
Inline Staff View in the Track View (similar to the inline PRV).
Option to simultaneously view notation data along with Controller data in PRV.
Ability to easily copy/paste chords/expressions/dynamic markings/lyrics from one stave/track to another.
Ability to change spacing between staves and number of staves to be printed on a page.
Overall, ways to make it easier to work in Staff View emphasizing the need for deep flexibility and control.

=================
 
I will be voting for some of these on the Features Requests forum.
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