DRanck
 
 
Michael - I could create 2 versions of each composition, 1 for sound, 1 for the score. Sadly that's just too much effort for me.
 

All I do is open a saved version from say my external drive, use that as the "notation" version, and then save it under a new name (Skating Score for example).

Anderton
Thanks for the effort Jerry, I've passed the info along to the Bakers. 

Love that quote.

I just spent about 24 hours installing, learning and testing Digital Performer for Windows--again (I did the same thing about 18 months ago, when it first came out for Windows). 
 
I think DP's ergonomics are wonderful, the notation editor is better in these respects:  It can display tied and dotted triplets correctly (I originally thought that dotted triplets were a problem, but apparently now they are not) and also 64th notes correctly (which I use almost never). That's about it.  I actually like Sonar's method of having a continuous staff running along the length of the monitor rather than try to emulate a letter- or legal-size manuscript paper, as DP does.  It is much easier to resize staves in Sonar, DP wastes a lot of precious screen real estate, at least in terms of notation. 
 
I would simply use both programs but here's the insurmountable problem with DP:   It drops MIDI notes and notes hang.   It only happens when I am sending midi data from the DAW to my 2nd (dedicated to VSL library) computer, using two MOTU MIDI interfaces, the Express XT (8x) and the Microlite (5x5).  I never experience dropped or hanging notes in Sonar, in all the 22 years I've been with Cakewalk, I can count maybe two times that I experience dropped, or hanging notes.  DP doesn't have a MIDI buffer setting as Sonar does, which might fix the problem.
 
DP's tech support is great, really helpful people, but I cannot use a program that impacts MIDI playback.  Having a few display bugs in the staff view is acceptable (although I wish Cakewalk would do something about it) but dropped notes are not acceptable.  If there were something wrong with the 2nd midi interface, I would think that Sonar would have a problem with dropped notes, but it doesn't.  Strange thing is, both MIDI interfaces are made by MOTU, as is my audio interface. 
 
So, I'll probably be using Sonar exclusively for the future.  If they improve the staff view CW will have the most stable, feature-rich, reliable DAW on the market, as much for producers, engineers and beat-makers as for composers, songwriters, arrangers, film composers--anyone and everyone who knows the value of notation in music creation.
 
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com
 

jsg
 
It only happens when I am sending midi data from the DAW to my 2nd (dedicated to VSL library) computer, using two MOTU MIDI interfaces, the Express XT (8x) and the Microlite (5x5). 

Sorta off topic:  A basic question: Have you tried using the Ethernet for MIDI connections, such as is offered by MusicLab?
http://www.musiclab.com/products/midioverlan/info.html
 
If so, what issues did you encounter that resulted in you saying short words aloud?
 

All I do is open a saved version from say my external drive, use that as the "notation" version, and then save it under a new name (Skating Score for example).

 
Michael - How do you handle a myriad of tweaks made in the PRV? I don't force full quantization to keep things more natural and in some cases, the timing has to be a bit off for things to sound right. An example would be a legato patch that requires notes to overlap. Many times these lines aren't notated well.
 
And then there keyswitches and articulation changes. Keyswitches can be put in separate tracks but with a library like East West Hollywood Strings, the articulations are in separate tracks. I might easily have 5 or 6 tracks for each section. I'd have to go into Notion and manually copy them into one staff. And as soon as I do, I'll need to make a change 
 
This is why it is for me anyway, too much effort most of the time. I'd love to compose first in a notation program, but then I give up the "performance" tweaking in a DAW. 
 

DRanck

All I do is open a saved version from say my external drive, use that as the "notation" version, and then save it under a new name (Skating Score for example).

 
Michael - How do you handle a myriad of tweaks made in the PRV? I don't force full quantization to keep things more natural and in some cases, the timing has to be a bit off for things to sound right. An example would be a legato patch that requires notes to overlap. Many times these lines aren't notated well.
 
And then there keyswitches and articulation changes. Keyswitches can be put in separate tracks but with a library like East West Hollywood Strings, the articulations are in separate tracks. I might easily have 5 or 6 tracks for each section. I'd have to go into Notion and manually copy them into one staff. And as soon as I do, I'll need to make a change 
 
This is why it is for me anyway, too much effort most of the time. I'd love to compose first in a notation program, but then I give up the "performance" tweaking in a DAW. 
 

I hear you. In my case, there's no need to deal with PRV events since I don't use that view. (I know: Heresy!). I only want to make a score that can serve as a copyrightable paper or hard copy of my music, not one that is ready for musicians and conductors. This sonar can do, with some significant tweaking. For example, for trills I put in the two notes that the trill is on, and add in the lines between them by hand that indicate it is to be played as a trill. I do other similar things like that. White-out is used heavily at times. Actually, I haven't done this for awhile. when I finish revising all my music, I'll be looking for a better way, you can be sure!
 
The main thing I use staff view is for midi editing. Since, again, I'm just looking to make serviceable mockups, I don't worry that there's not enough humanization.  I get away with all this because I'm just a hobbyist. I recognize that professionals need far more sophisticated tools.

YouDontHasToCallMeJohnson

jsg
 
It only happens when I am sending midi data from the DAW to my 2nd (dedicated to VSL library) computer, using two MOTU MIDI interfaces, the Express XT (8x) and the Microlite (5x5). 

Sorta off topic:  A basic question: Have you tried using the Ethernet for MIDI connections, such as is offered by MusicLab?
http://www.musiclab.com/products/midioverlan/info.html
 
If so, what issues did you encounter that resulted in you saying short words aloud?
 

Yeah, sorry, I want improvements in the Sonar staff view and the only way to get it is to use DPs!  ;>)
Thanks for the tip, that's exactly what I am now considering, just wrote to VSL and Cakewalk to see about compatibility.  I just found that link you posted a few minutes ago.   I haven't installed the necessary software, already have a good LAN connection between the two.    Have you had success with mLAN?
 
Thanks,
Jerry

On the aside, using midi over lan has been a very effective solution for me in the past (Windows XP).  No longer need to do it, but it worked fine. 
 
On staff view, been said many times before, it's horrible.  Just read this in the Platinum Reference Guide: 
 
"triplets must occur in full sets of three"
"all three steps in a triplet must be notes (no rests) of the same duration".
 
I believe Vivaldi, Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven might have decided to use another DAW for their notation.  Brahms would be here in the forum complaining.

Anderton
 
Again, the bottom line is this. Fixing bugs and making current users generally happy is doable. To devote resources to create something that goes way beyond that would prevent dedicating those resources to something like VocalSync or Mix Recall, which is useful to a wide variety of the user base. Also remember that notation has no relevance to people who do primarily audio recording, which is how many people use DAWs.

What a thread!  Add one more unique user to the list of folks who'd like to see some refinements in the staff view.  Craig - I agree with about 99% of what you've written on this topic, and no, notation has no relevance to people who do primary audio recording.  In this respect, Cakewalk has in a way shot itself in the foot by including SO many features in their DAW.  If Sonar's primary intention was for audio recording and mixing, then one would expect advanced editing tools, signal processing capability, and so on.  But by including so many virtual instruments and MIDI tools, Cakewalk has made it clear that their intent for Sonar is to create a (mostly) one-stop-shop for music creation from start to finish.  But because they are a front-runner from a MIDI/VSTi standpoint, a deficient staff view is all the more glaring. 
 
Sonar is SO flexible in so many ways.  This flexibility allows users to define their own workflows.  Don't like the Inspector pane?  Hide it and never see it again.  Prefer the ProChannel than the FX bin?  Have at it.  Want some interesting ways to create and manipulate MIDI?  Check out the step sequencer, matrix view or piano roll.  Stay away from the staff view though, because that's not as intuitive as the rest of our stuff. :)
 
Just saying that for the sake of consistency, staff view should be just as functional as the rest of Sonar's features, especially since Cakewalk places such a strong emphasis on music creation by bundling tons of virtual instruments.
 
I do, however, feel encouraged that because of the recent changes at Cakewalk and the way they've been implementing fixes/features with the new membership model, Cakewalk will address the staff view issues.

Craig Anderton wrote:
 
"Again, the bottom line is this. Fixing bugs and making current users generally happy is doable. To devote resources to create something that goes way beyond that would prevent dedicating those resources to something like VocalSync or Mix Recall, which is useful to a wide variety of the user base. Also remember that notation has no relevance to people who do primarily audio recording, which is how many people use DAWs."
 
For the first ten years or so, the Sonar owner's manual introduction (hard copy in those days) always touted Sonar as a tool for composers, arrangers, musicians etc.  Sonar began as a MIDI sequencer, audio was added later.  My point is that the term "composers" was listed first, or near the beginning, so it gave me confidence that Cakewalk understood that composers would be using their software.   No other DAW publisher (DAWs that have a staff view that is) have dropped the ball as CW has in terms of bug fixes for a part of the programs that is essential for musicians.   Look at this thread!!!  Look how many Sonar users do care about the staff view and notation!
 
You don't have to be a classical composer to understand the importance of music notation to the creative process. Jazz arrangers and composers, pop arrangers, film composers and orchestrators, game composers, TV composers--ALL of these folks use notation and they are not necessarily classical composers. 
 
I think CW is shooting itself in the foot.  The company has no idea how many people don't buy Sonar because of the staff view and their unwillingness to place its status on par with other features of the program. 
 
Jerry
www.jerrygerber.com