twohands
I think the notion of improving Staff View by tinkering is a non-starter.  It is just not good enough for that.   I suggest throwing it away and starting fresh.  That is a lot of work, of course.   But there is a simpler way.  There actually is a Cakewalk product, since gone to GenieSoft and who knows where else, called Scorewriter, which is miles superior to the notation tool in Sonar.   It is not Finale or Notion or any other fancier, more up-to-date software.   But it is pretty good and certainly a great improvement over Sonar.   Perhaps Cakewalk could re-acquire the rights and integrate it into Sonar.  it would at least get some of us to shut up.  At least for a while.

If I were to speculate I would speculate that Don Williams wrote the code for Cakewalk's staff view and that he will never sell Sonic Scores to Cakewalk. :-)

rabeach

twohands
I think the notion of improving Staff View by tinkering is a non-starter.  It is just not good enough for that.   I suggest throwing it away and starting fresh.  That is a lot of work, of course.   But there is a simpler way.  There actually is a Cakewalk product, since gone to GenieSoft and who knows where else, called Scorewriter, which is miles superior to the notation tool in Sonar.   It is not Finale or Notion or any other fancier, more up-to-date software.   But it is pretty good and certainly a great improvement over Sonar.   Perhaps Cakewalk could re-acquire the rights and integrate it into Sonar.  it would at least get some of us to shut up.  At least for a while.

If I were to speculate I would speculate that Don Williams wrote the code for Cakewalk's staff view and that he will never sell Sonic Scores to Cakewalk. :-)

Release the hounds, and retrieve Mr. Williams post haste.  Don't necessarily want Overture or Score Writer, but if he's the only one who knows the SV code...  Everyone has their price. 

I downloaded the "Elements" trial today. I can't see that it is much different, or much better than AI. Yes, the notation does triplets better (will include rests), but I still am put off by the non-intuitive work flow. I can't understand why cubase has such a reputation. I am mystified by its GUI. Don't like it all.


So...my quest for a DAW I can export Sonar projects to, and do the notation there, must continue. Hell, I might just give up, who needs a score anyway? Maybe I'll just go back to doing it by hand...

Clarification: it appears that the Cubase trials I checked out are for LE/AI/Elements combined. That's why I saw no difference between the first one, which was for 7, and the second, which was for 8. they are essentially the same. No doubt the trial for the big-time Cubase would be better, but I think I got enough of the Cubase flavor to convince me it's not to my liking.
 
At this point, I'm leaning toward Notion. If you can export Sonar midi files into Notion, then you can work on the notation there. I could still work in sonar, then do the notation in Notion.
 
Re: Notion and Studio One: I do think Presonus is now positioned best to create the best hybrid of DAW and notation. The only question is how they will do it. Bring Notion into Studio One, or expand Notion's DAW capabilities. Either way, they are in a great position. If Cakewalk does not act soon, they will lose out. Cakewalk may have already decided it's not worth it. But I think they are writing their own death sentence if that's the case.

I use Notion like that now. I like Notion. It can just be time consuming to edit each part to get it to display correctly.

michael diemer
But I think they are writing their own death sentence if that's the case.

At first blush, this may seem overly dramatic.  But when you look at haw many DAW products are coming onto the market, that tells us that DAW technology is becoming pervasive in all aspects of music.  The market will separate itself into tiers based on the level of user that migrates to each product.
 
This has always been the case.  Recording studios migrated to ProTools, not because it was a fantastic DAW, but because it was reliable and integrated with high-end studio hardware.  I will suggest that the next tier of DAW users will be the full-function DAWs that have good notation solutions.  And this is a short list: StudioOne and Cubase at this stage.  It looks like DP is contending and Sonar ought to be a player here.
 
If Cakewalk doesn't recognize the importance of that, then they will end up in that bottom tier of also-rans.  I don't know that is necessarily a death sentence, but it isn't where Gibson should want the product to end up.  Gibson has forced Cakewalk into a high-risk position with this subscription model.  IMHO the only way that model will work long term is if Sonar is considered to be in the same tier as Cubase and Studio One.

cparmerlee

michael diemer
But I think they are writing their own death sentence if that's the case.

At first blush, this may seem overly dramatic.  But when you look at haw many DAW products are coming onto the market, that tells us that DAW technology is becoming pervasive in all aspects of music.  The market will separate itself into tiers based on the level of user that migrates to each product.
 
This has always been the case.  Recording studios migrated to ProTools, not because it was a fantastic DAW, but because it was reliable and integrated with high-end studio hardware.  I will suggest that the next tier of DAW users will be the full-function DAWs that have good notation solutions.  And this is a short list: StudioOne and Cubase at this stage.  It looks like DP is contending and Sonar ought to be a player here.
 
If Cakewalk doesn't recognize the importance of that, then they will end up in that bottom tier of also-rans.  I don't know that is necessarily a death sentence, but it isn't where Gibson should want the product to end up.  Gibson has forced Cakewalk into a high-risk position with this subscription model.  IMHO the only way that model will work long term is if Sonar is considered to be in the same tier as Cubase and Studio One.

I doubt Gibson has forced Cakewalk to do anything. I do suspect they may have urged them strongly to show a profit.  :-)

michael diemer
I downloaded the "Elements" trial today. I can't see that it is much different, or much better than AI. Yes, the notation does triplets better (will include rests), but I still am put off by the non-intuitive work flow. I can't understand why cubase has such a reputation. I am mystified by its GUI. Don't like it all.


So...my quest for a DAW I can export Sonar projects to, and do the notation there, must continue. Hell, I might just give up, who needs a score anyway? Maybe I'll just go back to doing it by hand...

The work flow is very different from Sonar.   I wouldn't call it unintuitive but I had to learn to think in different terms.

michael diemer
I can't understand why cubase has such a reputation. I am mystified by its GUI. Don't like it all.

 
I'm all with you on that. Cannot imagine sitting all days working in Cubase.
Tried for a month evalutating to go Cubase route - but hated every moment.
Steinberg never had the guts to do a real makeover - like Cakewalk had introducing X-series.
And naming of things are odd in Cubase - to me anyway.
Busses - hardware ins and outs
Group channels - busses
VST channels - synth rack
VST Connections - one would think it had something to do with VST plugins, but is just routings
Events - clips
 
But I found that everything works in Cubase, even Waves Tune etc...and keep it for that alone if some vocals needs adjusting, I can move a track to Cubase.
 
A little on topic - Cubase Elements is heavily reduced on notation compared to Cubase Pro.
Also non existent track lanes, midi event editor, midi plugin bays - in Elements version.
 
Cakewalk is much more generous regarding features of raw daw features in entry version Sonar Artist.
 

cparmerlee
I will suggest that the next tier of DAW users will be the full-function DAWs that have good notation solutions.  And this is a short list: StudioOne and Cubase at this stage.  It looks like DP is contending and Sonar ought to be a player here.

 
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Studio One's notation solution the same as SONAR's - buy Notion, and use them both?
 
If I had to place bets on who has the best potential notation solution, it would be Pro Tools because they own Sibelius. But I think they might also be of the mindset that if Pro Tools' notation ibecame too good, they'd cannibalize sales of Sibelius so they don't want to do that.
 
What Cakewalk really needs is deep market research. Anecdotal evidence on a forum from, with all respect, a consistent group of people who have a need (not just a desire) for notation is helpful but not definitive. Also, surveying the user base on the importance of notation isn't definitive either, because presumably the user base realized notation wasn't as developed in SONAR going in, and bought it anyway for its other attributes. So if they didn't need heavy-duty notation when they bought SONAR, they probably don't need it now.
 
Also I don't think people are very likely to switch from a DAW they know. Now, maybe if SONAR had notation comparable to Cubase, people would switch for the workflow but even then, it's hard for people to let go of the experience they've accumulated over the years getting proficient with a program.
 
So, IMHO the info Cakewalk really needs is what people who are considering buying a DAW want. If for example 20% said the presence of good notation would influence their selection, then it would be essential for SONAR to beef up notation capabilities. But if only 2% said it was important, it wouldn't make sense to invest more into bringing it up to spec.
 
That said, at least the last release gave some love to Staff View, so who knows...