I don't see the current staff view as completely useless, most of the time I can get what I need to do there done.
It has some really annoying idiosyncrasies, but I've figured out how to work around most of them. That being said, there are some pretty basic fixes that will satisfy most of the people who are complaining about it. I don't think anyone is asking for full blown scoring.
I suspect that Roland didn't see much value in maintaining it and prioritized other parts of the application. During Rolands tenure, there seemed to be a buy vs build approach to Sonar, not a lot of fixes but all kinds of new lite versions of stuff from other vendors. Over years of neglect the code probably rotted. From what I've seen lately, Gibson appears to be ok with letting the coders code so maybe there is some hope for the worst parts getting fixed.
I do know that fixes to the notation editor will be a major weighting factor for me come renewal time. Other DAWs have good ones and there is little that Sonar does that they don't do, switching is just a matter of learning curve.
 

cparmerlee

BobF
I've searched and even purchased some Notation apps ... I've noticed that the major players all support score playback via VSTs. 

Please tells us more about that.  To my knowledge, NONE of the major notation apps are integrated with any DAWs at this point.  The best you can do today is painstakingly follow a very manual, tedious process to move information from the notation program into the DAW, one instrument at a time, by exporting MIDI.  And that is not a 2-way process.  If you want to make any changes in either platform, ti will not be reflected in the other environment.
 
That's one of the two big problems discussed on this thread.  It is an obvious, practically a no-brainer requirement that notation and DAW programs work more seamlessly.  We have technologies like Rewire to integrate programs.  Something like that is needed to make DAWs and notation play together better.  That is what serious notation users need.
 
The other need expressed here is for Cakewalk to fix the long-outstanding bugs in the lightweight notation that is built into Sonar.

I didn't say anything about DAW integration.  I said playback via VST ... this is a pic from the corner of the Notion 5 score setup screen
 

 
This is all supported directly in Notion.  Sibelius and Finale have similar capability.  I only asked this question because I have heard some pretty amazing score playbacks that folks have done without using a DAW at all.
 
So if, and this is a big if, if the focus is on composing it looks to me -a confessed non-composer type- that using a tool that has composing as the primary function would work best.  All of these also have MIDI export capability so that one could -once the composition is complete- export the MIDI for import into a different sequencer/VSTi host/DAW to further enhance the audio side.
 
So ... is full function scoring of this type the end goal folks looking for Staff View improvement have in mind?
 
This is inexperienced curiosity on my part.  I'm sure I understand a lot less than I understand on the subject.
 

I use Staff View in Sonar to do 95% of my music creation and arrangement.  Basically, that is how I build and record a song.  It would be extremely tedious to import and export stuff all the time.
 
I don't just use Staff for orchestra (although I do that, too).  I use if for bass, drums, strummed acoustic guitars--basically everything.

michael diemer

cparmerlee

BobF
I've searched and even purchased some Notation apps ... I've noticed that the major players all support score playback via VSTs. 

Please tells us more about that.  To my knowledge, NONE of the major notation apps are integrated with any DAWs at this point.  The best you can do today is painstakingly follow a very manual, tedious process to move information from the notation program into the DAW, one instrument at a time, by exporting MIDI.  And that is not a 2-way process.  If you want to make any changes in either platform, ti will not be reflected in the other environment.
 
That's one of the two big problems discussed on this thread.  It is an obvious, practically a no-brainer requirement that notation and DAW programs work more seamlessly.  We have technologies like Rewire to integrate programs.  Something like that is needed to make DAWs and notation play together better.  That is what serious notation users need.
 
The other need expressed here is for Cakewalk to fix the long-outstanding bugs in the lightweight notation that is built into Sonar.

Exactly. In an age in which we will soon witness a spacecraft do a fly-by of Pluto, why is it too much to ask that we have a single software program that can adequately sequence as well as notate? Is this really such a Herculean task? Or is it just complacency? Which will in the end be the death of Sonar or anything else that does not keep growing and meeting the demands of the marketplace.

The Pluto fly-by is funded by taxes.  A funding source that never even questions ROI (in dollar terms).  "Adequate" combined MIDI sequencing and notation are projects to be undertaken by entities that DO have to have ROI in dollar terms.  Otherwise they won't continue to exist for the next round of enhancements.
 
I doubt the task is "Herculean" as much as I doubt notation is on the back burner because of complacency.
 
There are three notation applications I know of that do notation/scoring really well and also support sophisticated playback and exporting capabilities.  Just like 'adequate' though, my idea of 'really well' is subjective as heck and serves no real purpose in a discussion aimed at mutual understanding. 
 
I've been along for most of this ride too.  Notation has been the red-headed stepchild as far back as my Cakewalk memory goes.  I can't imagine having a feature that dear to me left so far behind without me finding another solution.
 
That last sentence comes across way stronger than my intent, but I don't know how else to word it.
 
My understanding is obviously too small to even be involved in this discussion.  Sorry for stepping into it.  I'll bow out now.
 
 

BobF
I've searched and even purchased some Notation apps ... I've noticed that the major players all support score playback via VSTs. 

 
My mistake.  Yes, many notation programs can play VST instruments, but this is NOTHING like the capability of playing through a proper DAW.

cparmerlee

BobF
I've searched and even purchased some Notation apps ... I've noticed that the major players all support score playback via VSTs. 

 
My mistake.  Yes, many notation programs can play VST instruments, but this is NOTHING like the capability of playing through a proper DAW.

I get that ... I was suggesting that the playback might be good enough to get a composition completed before exporting to a proper sequencer for final production.

BobF
I get that ... I was suggesting that the playback might be good enough to get a composition completed before exporting to a proper sequencer for final production.

We do what we have to do.  I consider it quite inadequate, considering the state of the DAW art today.  And either way, that is quite a tedious process to migrate an orchestration from the notation program to the DAW.  In 2015, it really should be much better than this.

Thanks for filling me in.  I think I have a better understanding of the situation now.

Bob, you said:
"So if, and this is a big if, if the focus is on composing it looks to me -a confessed non-composer type- that using a tool that has composing as the primary function would work best.  All of these also have MIDI export capability so that one could -once the composition is complete- export the MIDI for import into a different sequencer/VSTi host/DAW to further enhance the audio side."
 
The problem, at least for me, in composing in a notation program, is that the playback quality does not give me good enough feedback for orchestration. Orchestration is the one thing that nobody is born knowing how to do. You can study books and internalize rules, and above all, listen to the great masters; but only hearing what you have done, with as much realism as possible, is going to give to give you the necessary feedback. The combination of instruments is often unpredictable. Before I ever had a computer, I composed and orchestrated (in pencil). When I got a computer, and Cakewalk Home Studio 6.0, for the first time I heard my music. Some of it sounded terrible, some amazingly good; but the point is, I really was shooting in the dark without having real feedback. The better the sound, the better the feedback. So, I can't leave Sonar for a notation program. Unless of course they develop DAW capabilities equal to Sonar. For me, Sonar is a composing program. And I don't need it to be Sibelius (incidentally, one of my favorite composers, for those who actually know there was a composer named Sibelius). I just need it to do triplets correctly and print like a real score, which means condensing the instruments so that only those playing are shown on the page. I can't believe this could be that hard.

michael diemer
Orchestration is the one thing that nobody is born knowing how to do. You can study books and internalize rules, and above all, listen to the great masters; but only hearing what you have done, with as much realism as possible, is going to give to give you the necessary feedback.

My work flow is from the other end (beginning in the notation product), but we converge on the point that high-quality playback is really important for today's composer.  I have two colleagues who are both good arrangers and both work with Finale a lot.  In the span of 2 weeks, one of them advised me that it was best to play back in Finale's simply MIDI playback because that was the only way you could really hear the harmonies well.  The other one was even more extreme.  He said that he was most successful playing everything back as piano parts only.
 
I would never dream of doing that.  That may make is easy to head bad notes (notes that are simply mistakes.  But voicings must be carefully crafted to get the most musical effect.  Those simple playback modes don't have a chance of helping us hear the nuances of how instruments blend and how voices work together (or not).  Using the simply MIDI playback, one risks producing a poor quality orchestration that may require multiple readings by the ensemble and multiple revision before the arrangement is suitable for public presentation.
 
Indeed, you actually can get very realistic playback directly from Finale by using good VST libraries, and I do this every time.  This allows you to hear the timbres and the interaction of overtones.  Often I can produce a score that requires no revision at all -- or only minor revisions after the first reading.
 
In other words, it is about time and quality.  Isn't everything?
 
The problem with the notation programs is not that they are unable to use VSTs.  They do use the VSTi products if you are lucky, and that can do a good job on the viocings.  But there are many other nuances that are not so successful directly within the notation programs.  For example, swing feel or breathing/bowing just may not sound quite right without some detailed adjustments to the MIDI.  And of course, some additional DAW-style processing can help tremendously.  For example, it would often be desirable to use a ducking compression technique if a piece features a solo instrument or voice.  And I have often wished I could have automation of track volume/velocity within the notation program in order to bring out the important lines a little more than is indicated by the printed dynamic markings.
 
Basically, I see this as two sides of the same coin.  One world (DAW and notation), not two separate domains. That's the kind of flexibility we need regardless of which platform we use as our base for composition.