Anderton
As to Vintage Vibe specifically, I have a problem with someone who says he switched from SONAR to Cubase, yet still comes in here periodically to complain about the program.
 
Regarding notation, he has contributed a plethora of negative posts in a thread about a program he claims to have switched from using "except to open legacy projects." So what is his motivation for coming in and complaining about SONAR? I don't get it. not a Cubase user dismissing a transparent and forthright statement from SONAR's project manager
 
…IIRC this is the same person who was experiencing a problem with his system, and refused to even try advice the community gave him  

 
Craig,
 
In your attempt to misrepresent me you conveniently left out the part that I specifically that I did not want to troubleshoot any further.  I have literally hundreds of Sonar files that I need and use.  I am a Sonar user.  I have been a Sonar user longer that you have.  I suspect that I have spent far more on Cakewalk software than you have.  I have said that many times in this thread but you have chosen to ignore it.  Very misleading on you part to characterize me as not a Sonar user. 
 
 
It's really sad and unprecedented in my experience for a representative of a company to be so openly hostile to a customer.  Is this openly aggressive ill will part of the new Cakewalk?    
 
In my opinion two bug fixes in 15 years means abandonment.
In my opinion Cakewalk will never invest significant resources to overhaul the staff view and make it on par with (or even close to) Cubase, Protools or DP.  It will always be substandard.  People who are waiting for this will be disappointed.  Prove me wrong.
 
These are my opinions.  I have years of experience that have led me to these conclusions.  I know you don’t agree and I know you don’t like them but it’s a little scary that you would fight so hard to discredit opinions.   It’s clear that you don’t want them heard.  I suspect you could have me banned but until then I will express my opinion as a Cakewalk customer.  I don’t know what your actual roll here is but you are acting like a propaganda minister and I find that and your aggression toward me extremely unprofessional.

 
(Actually, I take that back. I'm not sure if I stand corrected or not. It all depends on whether Vintage Vibe was telling the truth today, or whether he was telling the truth a week ago.) 
 

vintagevibe

mudgel
But I don't think this post has anything to do with opposing opinions. More a dogged determination to derail the notation discussion by someone who by their own words isn't even a Sonar user any longer.

Please read this thread. I am a Sonar user and have been since the mid 90's...but of course I shouldn't have voice if you disagree with my opinions. I've also been on this forum since before it was a forum and was a news group. I can tell you that it definitely was not like this before. Opposing opinions used to be welcome.
 

Vintage Vibe, your saying "I made the switch to Cubase" is NOT an opinion, it's a statement of fact. Opposing opinions remain welcome. Blatant disingenuousness does not - and unfortunately for you, we HAVE read this thread. 
 
Which is the truth - what you claim above, or what you said in this very thread one week ago: 
 
 
"After many years of Cakewalk sending out notation surveys and never improving it, along with stability issues,  I made the switch to Cubase.  Cubase notation is by far the most advanced in any DAW.  It does some pretty cool things that even Sibelius can't do.  I don't like the dongle either but it's a small price to pay for the notation and MIDI power I have now.  I don't need to use keyswitches any more, I can just pull articulations from a menu and put them in the score.  Very cool stuff.  Another thing is that Steinberg is working on a dongle-less solution but no one knows when it will be implemented.  I avoided switching from Cakewalk/Sonar for years hoping for usable notation and the switch took some effort but was the only solution for notation and turned out to be well worth it."
 
 
Of course, I could just be misunderstanding you, after all, "I made the switch to Cubase" in no way implies that you made the switch to Cubase - it could be your opinion that you switched to Cubase, not something that actually happened. Or maybe you meant to say "I made the switch to SONAR." Or maybe you switched to Cubase so recently you're confused as to what you're using.
 
Then again, there's this post from two years ago - July 1, 2013:  "I'm doing all my creative projects in C7 now.  After spending some time setting up templates, when I import the MIDI and audio i'm ready to go.  I've got all my main FX and routings already set up.  I also learned and created my main key bindings so it really has been surprisingly easy.  Also the C7 manual may be the best in the industry IMO."
 
Lest anyone think I'm being mean, I'm not the one who switched my stories within a one-week period. I just called you on it. If you had been honest, I wouldn't have needed to say anything.

As a journalist Craig, are you paid by the word count.

"I shot an arrow into the air. It came to earth, I know not where?"
 
Yes, it does relate.....

Meh, I don't use notation, I think a LOT of users don't. I would suspect if someone used it heavily they'd invest in a dedicated program. I remember Cake offered a deal for Notion way back, and sheesh Sibelius is the king daddy of notation progams. If one were really into writing that way I would think they'd buy it the same way people really into pitch correction would upgrade to the full version of Melodyne.
 
I don't think notation feature-hungry folk shouldn't get what they want, but like Cake have directly said, there's bigger fish to fry. I can think of at least ten features I'd like to see that would be way more important to me than notation. But hey, deep down I hope we ALL get what we want! :-)

Read this veeerrrrry slowly.  I switched to Cubase and do all of my creative work and new files in it.  I have hundreds of Sonar files that I still use.  I have said both of these things on many occasions.  Now you are calling me liar.  It just gets worse and worse.  Now I suspect you will go through every word I've ever written to try and find gotchas.   I always assume that when I'm arguing a point with someone and all they do is correct my spelling that I've won the argument.  Of course now you'll explain why this isn't an argument...
 
p.s. this forum really needs a face palm

Well, from my point of view, the palm applies to the opposite face.

No one's asking for stacks of features Wicked, just fixes and some tweaks. We've seen some fixes, but I think expecting all bugs to be address no matter what area of the program is a reasonable expectation as a customer.
 
Regards Sibelious, I see the point if you are full on scoring or something, but if you want your workflow in Sonar because you write with a mix of acoustic and software instruments and then mix while you work, why would you jump out to another program.
 
I have acoustic instrutuments in C, Bb and G (yep that's an odd one). Say I create a loop, with beats and chords. Melodyne allows me to play something on the flute over it, chuck it back into Sonar edit and see it as score, assign to a synth, transpose it a create a harmony line to the originbal Flute line, transpose it to the correct key for me to read withr either my soprano (Bb) or my Alto (G), if I still had my Baritone (Eb), or maybe for a key for another musician to play instead. And record over the same beat and chords. Use the pro channel tools to make it sit sweet. Why would I want to go outside of sonar to deal with  some scoring when everything else is in Sonar.
 
Creating harmonies is more intuitive for many in Staff View than PRV for many. We've seen developments to the latter but nothing (developments that is not fixes) to staff view, and for many removing the note lengths icon from staff view is a step back not forward and easily fixed (as duckbar prooves). 
 
Sonar braggs about Staff View in their advertising. But even if they didn't I think they have a responsibility to their customers to address bugs with in the program.
 
 
 
 

vintagevibe
Very misleading on you part to characterize me as not a Sonar user.

 
WTF? YOU are the one who said you switched to Cubase. How can I characterize someone who says he switched to Cubase as a SONAR user? How can repeating how you characterized yourself be misleading? The only conclusion possible from that is what you say is in itself misleading. On this, we agree.
 

It's really sad and unprecedented in my experience for a representative of a company to be so openly hostile to a customer.  Is this openly aggressive ill will part of the new Cakewalk?

 
My opinion is that those who can no longer deal with the merits of the facts resort to ad hominem arguments and rhetorical questions.
 
Read the disclaimer at the end of my sig. It should be obvious to anyone who has spent time in this forum that I am aggressive only when provoked, and that is very rare. I have no sympathy for someone who comes into a SONAR forum, says two years ago he started using Cubase for all his creative projects, re-characterized himself a week ago as having switched to Cubase, posts 39+ times in a thread complaining about a lack of notation fixes that was started OVER HALF A YEAR ago, disses the bakers, spreads misinformation about the company as fact, praises the competition (which in and of itself is okay - this "propaganda minister" has recommended Studio One, Ableton Live, Reason, and Sony Vegas to people when appropriate - just not in the context of dissing SONAR), and then gets indignant when his own words show him to be disingenuous.  
 

In my opinion two bug fixes in 15 years means abandonment.

 
And that's not true either. From a thread that's more interested in solving problems than causing them, here are fixes since X1: 
 
1. Snap function fixed
2. Order of tracks in track pane when switching screensets fixed
3. Order of tracks in track pane when opening file fixed
4. Easier to click on notes on ledger lines to bring up note properties (still not perfect, but definitely better)
 
Improvements over the Pre X days:

1.  Dark track pane easier to see
2.  Tabs--locked tabs are great for setting up multiple staff views.  Didn't exist before X1
 
And there have been five fixes specific to Staff view in the past three months. Cakewalk was purchased a year and a half ago and is under new management. The people at the company are working their asses off to increase stability, satisfy user needs, and devise a better way to distribute software. Yet you insist on "predicting' the future based on a past that no longer exists (which you also characterized incorrectly, see above), and lack the courtesy to cut a new team some slack. 
 

I know you don’t agree and I know you don’t like them but it’s a little scary that you would fight so hard to discredit opinions.

 
I have not ONCE discredited anything you said was an opinion. I am fighting hard to discredit misrepresentations you made that you presented as facts. I did not say anything against the opinion you expressed that SONAR would never have staff view on a par with other companies because that was indeed an opinion, and we'll find out eventually whether it's another of your flawed predictions or not. Personally, I have no idea. I have taken you to task only for things you stated as fact where time has proven you were wrong. I understand you have since attempted to modify your earlier positions with the excuse that you weren't sufficiently clear, but even if that's true, there are still plenty of things you stated as fact that are just plain wrong.
 
The only reason we're here now is because of your choices. I pointed out things you said that weren't true to show there had been progress on Staff View but I didn't name you, I didn't link to your posts, I left you personally out of it. I didn't expect anything more to come of my post, but YOU are the one who brought attention to what I said, and you're the one who put me in a position where I then had to defend myself. You could have just realized that what you had predicted was wrong, there were indeed bug fixes to staff view, and let it go. YOU were the one who jumped on it and made it personal. 
 
But now that you re-opened the topic and interjected yourself into it, had you not been so derogatory toward people who have NOT been here for 15 years and had NOTHING TO DO with your "abandonment," I would have been more understanding. You chose to say things that weren't true. I chose to dispute them.
 
 

I suspect you could have me banned but until then I will express my opinion as a Cakewalk customer.

 
...a "Cakewalk Customer" who says he switched to Cubase. Don't blame me for believing what you say. 
 
You didn't say "mostly use Cubase" or "use Cubase sometimes" or "alternate between the two," you said you switched to Cubase. 
 
I have never banned anyone and don't plan to start now. There is no need to silence you when your own words do the job. I believe in freedom of expression, and that includes me if I want to call out someone who is not being honest with the community. Nothing you said has been deleted, censored, or edited. 
 

I don’t know what your actual roll here is but you are acting like a propaganda minister and I find that and your aggression toward me extremely unprofessional.

 
More ad hominem. You are entitled to that opinion. I have not attacked you, only your misrepresentations. Quoting your own words is not attacking you. 
 
My role in this forum is clear if you read the disclaimer at the bottom. I don't care if you or Cakewalk has a problem with this. I don't care if Cakewalk tells me to stop participating in the forum. But when someone is clearly not being honest with the community, I do feel it is my duty to point that out. Then the community can decide whether you are contributing anything of value or not, and decide whether or not to engage with you.
 
I cannot waste any more time on someone who claims repeatedly to have switched to Cubase (the two posts I cited weren't the only ones), then chastises me for not characterizing you as a SONAR user. That is the last straw.
 
Have fun in the Cubase forum  Make sure to tell them you're a SONAR user, and that if you're not considered a SONAR user, they are mischaracterizing you.

vintagevibe
Read this veeerrrrry slowly.  I switched to Cubase and do all of my creative work and new files in it.  I have hundreds of Sonar files that I still use.

Why cannot he not switch to another program to create and not still use sonar Craig?