• SONAR
  • No notation fixes! (p.90)
2015/09/11 20:29:46
Anderton
ptheisen
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have several thoughts.

 
Cool. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but educational.
 
1) You named stability fixes as a forum topic that has more people participating than staff view.

 
Well, we're kind of off to a bad start, because that is not a fact. I responded to the following: "Can you give an example of anything else where 111 users had expressed support?" I never named stability fixes as a forum topic. It has come up in multiple contexts spread over multiple topics. 
 
Stability fixes is a pretty general topic, I don't think it is fair to compare that with a specific feature such as staff view.

 
Specific features don't matter if the program doesn't run properly, crashes, or has incompatibility issues with operating systems or other pieces of hardware. People might use Matrix view, Loop Construction, Video, Staff View, whatever - all of them are affected if there are instabilities in the general program. I keep mentioning priorities. I think few would feel that nailing down any one specific feature is more important than overall program stability.
 
2) When microapp asked his question about how many Sonar users wanted a new start screen, while you gave a lengthy and admirable response, you did not actually address his questions at all. So we're left to wonder, what are the facts about the number of people that asked for a new start screen? If we knew there were many requests for it, we would better understand why Cakewalk chose to implement it.

 
As I explained: "Instead, I think they believe it's important enough to continue doing fixes but the priority is simply not as high as fixing other problems that relate to stability and therefore affect all users, or introducing features that can attract new users (no company can survive solely on updates from its core users). 
 
I don't recall a thread where hundreds of people asked for ARA to be implemented so there could be a great Melodyne implementation. So, should Cakewalk have not done that? Of course not. Melodyne was a hugely popular addition to X3, and ARA laid the groundwork that allows for modules like the Drum Replacer. Some people have mentioned liking Studio One's start screen, which probably got the thought processes rolling. IIRC Logic has a start screen, so does GarageBand. So does Cubase where you get to choose the type of project you want to start. Apparently Cakewalk thought the Start Screen was becoming de riguer for DAWs and wanted to keep up with the competition. Nor is this Start Screen the end of it, further development is already planned that takes customer feedback (and mine, LOL) into account. And before you say "But the competition has staff view, Cakewalk has to keep up with that to stay competitive," please re-read my posts on sales of programs with and without staff views. 
 
3) In one of your posts, you raised the possibility that Cakewalk's scientific surveys may paint a different picture than the traffic in the forum. That is certainly possible, but I don't think we've been shown the actual results of those surveys (I could have missed it). Would it be possible for Cakewalk to release the information from a recent survey so that we all would have the facts about the desires and priorities of their overall user base?

 
Of course not!!!! With all due respect, this is the real world and companies, magazines, web sites, etc. guard proprietary surveys (which cost money to create) because they are designed to give companies a competitive advantage in terms of anticipating needs of the market. Have you seen any user survey results published by Ableton, Avid, Steinberg, etc.? No. It would be stupid to announce to the industry "Hey, people really like Melodyne and think it's way better than V-Vocal. You guys better get on the stick and include ARA integration as fast as possible to blunt any competitive advantage we might get from having it out before you."
 
Let me add a comment of my own. Either by accident or intention, people keep omitting that I keep stressing it's about more than numbers. One more time...
 
Please, think logically for a second:
  • If Cakewalk had internal research that showed something was extremely important to a significant percentage of its user base, and
  • Implementing it would bring in large amounts of revenue, and
  • The company had the technical ability to implement those changes
What possible reason would the company have for not doing it? Answer: They wouldn't, they would jump on it. So why aren't they jumping on it? I've already explained why.
 
Based on historical sales figures from anyone who has access to multiple years of MI Sales Trak ("Why can't you share that information, Craig?" "Because it's copyrighted and expensive. They wouldn't be happy with my giving it away for free. Buy your own subscription and educate yourself"), having a solid staff view is no guarantee of a sales increase. In fact it's very clear that the fastest-selling DAWs in recent history are ones that DON'T have staff view. 
 
Then there's the question of the resources to devote to something that doesn't score high on internal surveys and has not been a significant factor in overall DAW sales (although of course, it is a factor for those who want staff view, because they will pick the program that suits their needs best).
2015/09/11 20:31:56
Anderton
jatoth
Just for the record. To clarify Craig's repetitive "There have been fixes to Staff View".
Yes there have been.

 
Thank you for confirming. BTW the bug fix lists are only highlights. There are many more fixes that occur with each release but they're not particularly exciting or deal with some technical issue that was necessary to fix in order to fix a public-facing bug.
2015/09/11 20:48:46
Anderton
Now, let me give you an idea of what a solution would look like. A solution is not 100 or even a thousand people complaining in a forum thread. Here's an actual solution:
 
The head of the Shanghai school system, which is PC-based, wants a standard DAW to use in their music classes. After studying the competition, they feel SONAR is best because it handles loops, video, has a matrix view, runs on laptops or desktops, is developed in close cooperation with Microsoft, and includes so many useful effects and instruments that would save the school system from spending additional money on plug-ins. They are also thrilled that there is a Chinese language version with simplified Chinese, and a Chinese PDF document. However, they are disappointed in staff view so they contact Cakewalk saying "We would like to use SONAR Professional, but we find the staff view needs improvements to fit our needs.
 
"If you are willing to make the changes we require, we are prepared to order 10,000 copies of SONAR Professional. However, because we are buying in quantities, we want the price reduced to $100. We also want a physical distribution medium. Otherwise, we will look elsewhere."
 
Cakewalk does the math: (($100 x 10,000) - $50,000 for duplication, packaging, and shipping) = $950,000. Now, THAT meets the three requirements:
 
1. Enough people want it.
2. It will bring in significant revenue.
3. The significant revenue can pay for the resources needed to implement the changes.
 
It's just that simple. That's how the real world works...and don't think Cakewalk isn't looking for these kinds of opportunities.
2015/09/11 21:09:36
AT
I think it is great to have our own contact through Craig to the higher ups.  I'm sure the bakers spend some time here but Craig keeps his thumb on the pulse here.  It is nice to know.
2015/09/11 21:16:58
Sidroe
So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed?  No problem!  LOL!
2015/09/11 21:25:27
Anderton
Sidroe
So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed?  No problem!  LOL!



Right, go ahead and laugh. I thought some people might want to know what a "solution" looks like, but I guess I was wrong.
 
There are various potential scenarios. The point is how to satisfy the three requirements. If anyone here has actual ideas beyond the idea that complaining solves problems, I'd love to the hear them.
 
Anyone here run a school system?
 
You might be surprised at some of the things I've put together.
2015/09/11 21:48:02
kennywtelejazz
Sidroe
So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed?  No problem!  LOL!





Hey I'm down , here's some Chinese Rock I just did in SONAR ….
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson/midi-guitar-moods-v-2-0 
maybe I can make a few bucks on the side and get somebody better than me to mix it 
 
Kenny
2015/09/11 21:57:22
Anderton
kennywtelejazz
Sidroe
So, we have to talk the Chinese school system in to buying Sonar to get the SV fixed?  No problem!  LOL!





Hey I'm down , here's some Chinese Rock I just did in SONAR ….
https://soundcloud.com/guitarist-kenny-wilson/midi-guitar-moods-v-2-0 
maybe I can make a few bucks on the side and get somebody better than me to mix it 
 
Kenny




Hey, I like that. I appreciate someone who prefers contributing over mocking.
2015/09/11 22:07:09
rabeach
now i'm just poking fun but if we have to go out an market to 10,000 Chinese in order to get the staff view to work...what we need now is one of the professional users of sonar to step in and say that they don't want some client looking over their shoulder asking about the staff view. :-)
2015/09/11 22:14:36
noynekker
Elffin
What frustrates me is that the note icons removed in X1 could be added nearly instantly since Cakewalk employed the guy who made the sonar+ tool.. Implementing it back in would take virtually 0 resources!!

For a program that is 'touch screen' orientated hiding note icon (values) seems bizarre...

Yes, I like this post, it has a ring of truth amongst all the rhetoric, and I agree with Craig's comments about let's hear some realistic improvement ideas about staff view. If they implemented jsg's ideas it would send a serious signal to the Cakewalk staff users. Yeah, hope.
 
When I hear people posting about if they're not going to fix it, let's lose it, I can only shake my head, because for me staff view is very usable in it's current state, we just want to make it better don't we ?
 
Like most, I don't want a magnificent staff view notation system . . . I want the staff view midi editor improved.
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