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  • DAW ReBuild Nightmare - Did I Corner Myself? (p.4)
2017/09/05 22:49:06
Sir Les
http://www.boot-disk.com/boot_priority.htm
 
 
 
This is done on a dell machine?...well that might be the problem...link says on this page link they are using a dell machine...never did I buy into Dell...So, I know not your problem, with poorly written manual, and irq management issues, not allowing???....Should be telling you time is ticking away on da dell tossed in well to do...hitting brick walls...hmmm?...g41 chipset is nothing but problems!!!!...As I said this dell, is not newer..it is old...And dual core...So, PCI to PCI-e bridge is put by OS to solve the non existence of one!...As a service is now required to do what the chipset lacks in having, and most likely Celluron cpu.
 
Also Dell make their own motherboards...So, most probably you'll get better help from Dell...but g41 that ain't new..oh power supply suck also on those machines...I fixed a couple...too many limitations..slow as cold honey using xp!
 
Yah..best to just use one thing..and make it audio..nothing else...try that...and remove the wall...?
2017/09/06 03:58:22
SonicExplorer
No, it's NOT a Dell.  I was saying my prior machine was  Dell and it allowed for all the tweaks in the BIOS, AND it also worked with Windows so every device had it's own IRQ.  I had THREE sound cards in that box - M-Audio, Firewire/RME, and SBLive and it all mapped over into the OS wonderfully.   This "newer" box is a kit-computer with Intel DG41 board.  It is a dual core Pentium and has PCI and PCIe slots.   Twice as fast as the Dell and is more than adequate horsepower for anything I will ever need.  But you think the G41 chipset is bad??....
2017/09/06 10:48:21
fireberd
I am one of the Dell "forumites" (have been since 2002).  Dell's get a bad rap but are as good as any "factory made" (HP, Acer, etc) on the market.  Dell had some support issues when they moved consumer support overseas but as just about everyone uses "off shore" support its no longer the issue it once was.   Dell used to use a lot of custom/proprietary items in their desktop PC's but have went to mostly "standard ATX" compliance when the Inspiron desktop line replaced the Dimension Desktop line about 6 or 7 years ago.        
2017/09/06 13:14:17
Sir Les
Ok..You are using a DG41 chipset...Unclear manual and support?...and you saying "bios is not having these features to assign PCI slots and IRQs"    //....Perhaps is telling you it does not support it in bios.
 
But...if you reduce the IRQ's being used to some but not all...You might gain to move one to be free, if you free up some....how to, is remove, disable, and tweak or test....only you can, if using and having it before you to try to do.
 
IDE on board?
SATA 1 or 2?
This is why the G41 is added a D? DG41...both old having some, IDE, floppy support?... and newer  SATA ports added, were added as new, with usb updates also to usb2?..and you adding in more cards of usb...and another card of firewire...what about video?...onboard and or slotted type?....So, as you see, keyboard and mouse also...serial and coms...nic and or wi fi....all take up what is left over...and are hard wired some to....if no switch is put in bios control...how does one turn it off or disable the call for services start up on boot for the use there of, not not be used...MS config is the answer?....
 
So, here is where you might find it hard to move anything, or disable ...they filled it already with the sata addition...and usb...also...and ide...and most likely a video chip....doesn't leave much wiggle room eh?.
 
So...as some and I have said...it ain't easy..even if you get it to do it...it will still cause issues!...Right?...and you have them...surely trying...then, if you try all...the wall will come down one way or another.....And you will see.
 
I think some assignment was set as...IDE 1 and 2/ Floppy drives...were set to a specific IRQ...if you free them up...you might gain the use of...But then again...the OS might reserve those for , as storage device lanes or such services set for if detected to run on and with....if you cannot defeat them in Bios.
 
You might try to use the device manager, but some issues may arise using ...is to try and see if you can, turn off what is not necessary first!...if not doing, all irqs being used, will only result in sharing states!...it does not support the OS XP...features XP had to offer in allowing irq management...or you are not freeing up any?....is the only solution I see being ...The wall you made...and saying this is not able to be done...but you might be overlooking how to first free them up...then they can be used....is not always so!..it depends on how they are disabled sometimes...so that the OS does not detect them, when being installed as first time os put... and thus the OS sees first and puts in the services for...and install the base services for what you say cannot be disabled in bios..ties it to services....If you install the os with these things enabled, the installation of the OS will put services on for them, and boot them up when booting...So, you may have to end some services to manual modes...Hence Tweaking or hacking them also...might be something to think about....And or, a setup of Bios first, then install the OS...stops the os from putting holds on irq management and shared states...and or placement holders for!
 
Now some of this stuff can be disabled..ide, and usb, com, serial and or other features in bios or not?...then try it out...you will get one or the other...that removes one from the sharing of..what you want not shared....Right?.
 
If it does not let you, is because the irqs are full and or over fully used!...and the ones the OS will not share, are being used, you might have over looked can be disabled, some how, some way...or not.
 
If you say not....then?...should I argue?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
2017/09/06 18:48:25
SonicExplorer
SirLes, here is the exact board:  https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/boards-and-kits/desktop-boards/000023823.html
 
You can look at the tech prod spec and see what's involved.
 
It has a floppy controller but no IDE.  SATA and USB 2 onboard. 
 
I disabled Serial, LPT and LAN prior to installing OS.  But I am starting to wonder if maybe I should have left things enabled and then maybe XP would have shared devices on those IRQ's.  I could have then gone back into BIOS and disabled things, leaving desired devices on their own IRQ?   Because now, the way I installed things, those IRQ's are completely open and unused.
 
I am concerned also about these "PCI Standard PCI to PCI Bridge" device entries in DevMgr.  What are those things???  I don't have ANY of those "devices" in my old Dell machine.  Is that indicating some cheap motherboard design where extra bridge chips are used or something?  Does that mean everything on the PCI bus is having to arbitrate through whatever those "devices" are ??
 
Sonic
2017/09/06 22:21:00
abacab
Required reading.  Good overview of Deferred Procedure Calls (DPCs).
 
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml
2017/09/06 23:55:56
SonicExplorer
Way ahead of you, already tested with that tool weeks ago.  Just ran it again. It's showing 3us.
 
But DPC's are not the only issue here, they are kernel driver routines separate and apart from IRQ and INT lines.   A driver is not even required to register a DPC, and in fact may well not.  I am still not clear if the IRQ (or PIRQ as the case may be) is the key mechanism for the APIC/OS device management or not, because if so then the subject of DPC's is only indirectly related and not necessarily a factor in all cases.
 
Look at it this simple way: If IRQ didn't matter then why have them? Or why not just put everything on the same IRQ.  No, instead it very much can matter IMO.  Maybe in a Utopian world where all devices & drivers behave properly, and enough horsepower is present, there wouldn't be a problem.  But that's just not the case in reality.  Which is why DAW users still occasionally have to resort to changing BIOS settings or moving cards around to have different IRQ/INT assignments.
 
If I'm wrong then please point me at more information because I've been searching around for days and can't find anything to really clarify this.
 
Sonic
 
2017/09/07 01:34:17
bvideo
An alternative monitor is LatencyMon. Besides DPCs, it also monitors interrupt service routines (ISRs). These days, most high priority I/O processing is done in DPCs, and that's the major cause of latency (the kind that prevents servicing audio on time). A really old or badly designed driver might hang on to an ISR too long, but this has nothing to do with shared IRQs. (Sometimes we hear about some wifi or network drivers causing latency problems, but IRQ sharing has nothing to do with it.)
 
The ability of your h/w and s/w to service your DAW audio on time is what determines your minimum audio buffer latency. What prevents your DAW from getting scheduled on time is ISR and DPC processing (assuming you are running just your DAW and not some other heavy processes).
 
LatencyMon lays it all out for you, and tells you which ISRs and DPCs to worry about, if any. The previously mentioned latency checker is enough to tell you whether you're ok or not. It checks by periodically asking the system to run a DPC, then checking how long it takes to get it done. That's a good indicator of how fast your DAW can get ahold of a processor when it needs one. 3us max is good. LatencyMon goes a lot further, counting and timing ISRs and DPCs, and should set your mind at ease if you are still worried about IRQs.
2017/09/07 01:56:50
SonicExplorer
Darn, I was all excited to try LatencyMon but when I ran it, it said requires Vista or higher now.   Most of the software on the site still supports XP, but unfortunately not LatencyMon.  :-(
 
Anybody have an older revision that runs on XP? 
 
2017/09/07 02:27:34
abacab
SonicExplorer
Darn, I was all excited to try LatencyMon but when I ran it, it said requires Vista or higher now.   Most of the software on the site still supports XP, but unfortunately not LatencyMon.  :-(
 
Anybody have an older revision that runs on XP? 
 




Sorry, that is why I recommended DPC Latency Checker for XP.  LatencyMon is best for Win 8.1 and 10.
 
But the core of the issue is can the CPU service all the requests it receives in time to avoid a delay in the audio buffer?
 
IRQ sharing was moved to a virtual status years ago, and manual assignment is no longer the end users responsibility.  Plug and play OS is the default setting in most BIOS these days, and takes care of those details.
 
So if that's still an issue, all I can recommend is to update to a modern OS, run LatencyMon, and work it out...
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