So long as Bandlab don't make Sonar some silly web only app or just a plain silly app...then Sonar still has the edge on all other DAWs on the market for these two simple reasons...floating point all the way through the recording process and upsampling. Floating point audio files not to be confused with floating point mixing is the key to understanding HD audio full stop. One day I will write and publish a paper on this. But ever since I went from 32 bit fp - both mixing and audio files - to 64bitfp I knew I had found the secret. To my ear, 32bitfp bunched the bottom end up or made it grainy. Worse it turned the harmonic distortion created by emulation plugs into distortion. If Bandlab can understand this, and convince what's left of 'the industry' that this is the case...then Sonar can go from strength to strength. Hardware is no longer key for true HD audio. There's a software solution and its name is Sonar! If u guys at Bandlab use that pithy advertising line...make sure you pay me!

BenMMusTech
So long as Bandlab don't make Sonar some silly web only app or just a plain silly app...then Sonar still has the edge on all other DAWs on the market for these two simple reasons...floating point all the way through the recording process and upsampling. Floating point audio files not to be confused with floating point mixing is the key to understanding HD audio full stop. One day I will write and publish a paper on this. But ever since I went from 32 bit fp - both mixing and audio files - to 64bitfp I knew I had found the secret. From my ear, 32bitfp bunched the bottom end up or made it grainy. Worse it turned the harmonic distortion created by emulation plugs into distortion. If Bandlab can understand this, and convince what's left of 'the industry' that this is the case...then Sonar can go from strength to strength. Hardware is no longer key for true HD audio. There's a software solution and its name is Sonar! If u guys at Bandlab use that pithy advertising line...make sure you pay me!

 
I feel the love of the product also....It was sort of nice , when I finally got it kind of working...with work arounds....
 
I sought the blame on MS OS mostly...as many of my old apps died with the older OS versions...32bit ...and MS screwing it up by not fixing simple things in the browser, so it would continue to work on online and run the new applications also on....It is a cash cow base code....Sonar runs on, and relies upon to work proper.
 
So, putting in the spy and lie game into the OS...is just unfare to people...life...children..ect.
 
Now look how bad it is...online, is unsafe...why?...itis all part of the #atanic system of idolatry, and sacrifice of life for wealth......It is a ugly.
 
Some grumps hold it, and say no it is not.....But it is...and they cannot let go of the practice of use of it...They love it so much...They care not for whom gets squished under it...or dies because of not having it...Only they whom have it...run the show!..but look how bent.
 
Now...I believed in the words said and uttered by.....Life..time..Updates ..used to con out more dosh....what fail was the words they used to con out more dosh...and not able to fulfill.
 
The part of the user did not fail at all....For we be the life still living....And I know why....it is those who were giving the support free, the aid free, the life and times to help others freely...Even thought they pay for the connection some.....They still come here to help...even now....Amazed we still be?....It is said, in the Truth...It is freely given and received as so.....Test it out....It works better, than the 2000 year buy and sell muse...which has brought the world into wars so horrific...and still more is said and most tax and higher cost established every year, with new leaders doing the same old same old.... and taxed to come...more wars, more choas...more hate, more crime..more poor...and more dead!...because of it...
 
I thought Cakewalk was caught...and I saw the same shell game with Steinberg...pay pay pay plan..and others...now you pay for support per year plan?...How complicated is it to run a app?...that you need pay for support?...to get it working also?...wow what a shamoo....But....take it as it is....is what it is...until it is not...or comes to be better served.....For we all see it in the news....Lies, told, and used , and hidden agendas in the works....Underhandedness...and spy and lies all around....and information and profiling of people....They do not trust....As we all were forewarned by words of one...who came to show and tell and save some...out of it with a Truth so true....It blows the mind to wrap around that word...and become part of it..........THE TRUTH!...look it is true...the product and company did die....because of the cash cow system.....But the givers and sharing and caring people still be here.....As a force of helpers!

Cakewalk was very good at creating loyal, very loyal customers and you can't do that without something substantial to offer. That goes a very long way. A loyal customer will stick with you when things are tough, and even if they leave, they come back when you fix whatever went wrong.
 
My loyalty to CW is stronger, combined with my resistance to learn a whole new DAW after decades of only using one for my entire music career. Bandlab would have to mess up in a huge way to lose me as a customer, and I just don't see that happening. I'm just glad Sonar isn't mothballed any longer, and am excited to see what the next chapter brings.

Anderton

sharke
I'll go out on a limb and suggest that Reaper does a lot more than Sonar and is a superior DAW in almost every way. 

Universal statements assume people all use something in the same way, which they don't. For example, try creating a loop library that will stretch in other DAWs with Reaper.

Right. Loop capabilities of Sonar are way more advanced compare to Reaper. No groove pitch markers, ACID info is mostly discarded, Elastiq failing on drum loops.
At the same time dynamic split and stretch markers work good. And extendable by scripts.
 

There's no matrix view, which regardless of whether it's underutilized or not, is a valuable songwriting and improvisational tool.

For Ableton like use case, Reaper plug-in is better usable with controllers then Matrix (which was "forgotten" in ACT, has no feedback and hit by "MIDI leaks" bug). But as songwriting / buffer tool I miss Matrix.
 
For me,  these 2 features are the ONLY features which I have found in Sonar (as a DAW) superior to Reaper so far.
In everything else... Only the beginning of the list: performance, routing (especially in MIDI), extensions, plug-in bug resistance, stability, license schema and may be most important strong logic in everything, Reaper is km/miles ahead.
 
The rest is may be a part of Sonar as a bundle, but not features of Sonar as a DAW...

No DSD import or export for your Japanese clients.

Very specific feature. And just "import/export" convenience.
 

No tempo extraction from freestyle playing.

My success with tempo extraction was using Melodyne (standalone). Without a possibility to fix MIDI in absolute domain (assign fixed tempo to MIDI clips), setting extracted tempo is a challenge in projects with MIDI.
 

No upsampling, which is sooo much easier to do in Sonar than any other program.

Compare to a possibility to change the sample rate of the project any time, I will not call it a big advantage.
 

I'm not sure if Reaper has FX Chains but those are extremely valuable additions to both Studio One and Sonar.

A sequence of plug-ins as a (not portable) plug-in. There are portable container plug-ins for the job. The same as with "ProChannel", as yet another not portable container with special GUI (and more then usual oddities...).
As as set of plug-ins with specific presets and exposed controls, Reaper has FX Chains.
 

Sonar is also a more complete package - people who don't have the money to invest in lots of plug-ins will welcome features like the QuadCurve EQ (once you learn what those four curves can do, it's very difficult to obtain the same results in other EQs), TH3, Melodyne, Blue Tubes, phase-linear EQ with mid/side options per node (I know you can use ReaFIR as an linear-phase EQ, but it's clumsy and AFAIK doesn't offer mid-side processing), etc. I don't think those who want a complete package would dismiss them as just "goodies" but rather, see them as essential tools. Rapture Session also comes with some very useful sounds.

Agree. As a package, especially at the beginning, it was out of concurrence. I am still happy I have it.
I (with other exSonar user) try to convert QuadCurve EQ to ReaEQ, to reproduce the sound at least for bells. Interesting experience
 

I know Reaper is going to have ARA integration at some point (maybe it already does, I dunno), but Studio One has had it since 2011 and Sonar since 2013 IIRC. 

Will be ARA2, which is not yet released (but compatible combination of test versions exists).
 

Now, maybe these features mean nothing to you. However, I would never say Sonar is superior to Reaper in "almost every way" just because Sonar has features I need and Reaper doesn't.

Well thought, good working, logical and stable features of Sonar are... at least 7 years old. Everything touched later (and that, together with still good but for a reason outdated things like DX, compose "almost every way") is a kind of "incomplete" in one or several aspects.
 

promidi
If someone uses Sonar's instrument definitions, user defined controller and NRPN names,  support for Studioware panels, CAL support, etc, then they would say that Sonar does a lot more than Reaper does that they need it to do....

If someone has old Studioware panels (which are impossible to create within modern Sonar), I agree. Till some degree with old MIDI devices I can also agree. But comparing CAL with Reaper scripting and extensions is like comparing partially broken HDD recorder with modern DAW
 
---
 
I wish Sonar a good future. And I think in cooperation/integration with cloud based services it has a chance to find the place under the sun. 2 full time developers can be sufficient force to achieve that (if no one force them to be in a hurry all the time).
 
 

sharke

iRelevant

sharke
"Been using the program since the DOS days" 
 

Hoho, that's hilarious :) But yeah, I think your assessment of Sonar forum demographics is spot on.
 
I guess the punks who grew up with facebook and smartphones have new  expectations. 
 
I don't get around that much these days, so I'm curious as to what you would say have "street cred" these days ?

With the kids (teens, 20's), FL Studio, Ableton and Reason are where it's at, although Bitwig is making headway there too. These DAW's are heavily geared toward modern production techniques, especially in the electronic realm. Part of the reason why this kind of music production is so popular among youngsters it that you can do it solo, in your bedroom, without the need for expensive equipment or soundproof studios. Recording full bands is another story entirely. You need space, you need mics, you need the instruments, and even if you have all those it's a very steep learning curve to that "pro" sound. If you're using soft synths and samples you can do it all on a laptop in the box on your headphones and achieve a commercial quality mix, and kids are very much doing this. They're leaping on DAW's which have the best reputation in this area. Sonar doesn't get a look in. 
 
Logic and Pro Tools also have street cred, especially among the hip hop crowd and anyone recording vocal based pop or EDM. But it's not just the DAW's, it's the OS they run on. Macs have more street cred than PC's, and you're not going to get street cred (as much as I hate that term) with a DAW that only runs on Windows.  

Thanks for the update, I see I'm not totally out of the loop. So the trendy way to get cred these days then is to get a mac with logic built in, and supplement it with Bitwig for hipness. Man, those apple people know a thing or two about marketing. 

iRelevant

sharke

iRelevant

sharke
"Been using the program since the DOS days" 
 

Hoho, that's hilarious :) But yeah, I think your assessment of Sonar forum demographics is spot on.
 
I guess the punks who grew up with facebook and smartphones have new  expectations. 
 
I don't get around that much these days, so I'm curious as to what you would say have "street cred" these days ?

With the kids (teens, 20's), FL Studio, Ableton and Reason are where it's at, although Bitwig is making headway there too. These DAW's are heavily geared toward modern production techniques, especially in the electronic realm. Part of the reason why this kind of music production is so popular among youngsters it that you can do it solo, in your bedroom, without the need for expensive equipment or soundproof studios. Recording full bands is another story entirely. You need space, you need mics, you need the instruments, and even if you have all those it's a very steep learning curve to that "pro" sound. If you're using soft synths and samples you can do it all on a laptop in the box on your headphones and achieve a commercial quality mix, and kids are very much doing this. They're leaping on DAW's which have the best reputation in this area. Sonar doesn't get a look in. 
 
Logic and Pro Tools also have street cred, especially among the hip hop crowd and anyone recording vocal based pop or EDM. But it's not just the DAW's, it's the OS they run on. Macs have more street cred than PC's, and you're not going to get street cred (as much as I hate that term) with a DAW that only runs on Windows.  

Thanks for the update, I see I'm not totally out of the loop. So the trendy way to get cred these days then is to get a mac with logic built in, and supplement it with Bitwig for hipness. Man, those apple people know a thing or two about marketing. 

 
It's not just about image or "coolness" though. The reason why DAW's like Ableton and Bitwig have more "street cred" than Sonar is because functionally they are better suited to the kind of production techniques used in modern music. Like having inbuilt samplers and drum racks, being able to do mid/side or split band processing on the same track. I mean in Bitwig you can route multiple outputs from Kontakt onto the same track and process them all with separate but parallel FX chains. You can embed FX chains into synths. You can have FX chains within FX chains. You can split a signal into bands and give each one its own FX chain all on the same track. You can load up a drum kit into the drum rack and have separate FX chains for each pad, again all on the same track. And they make things like automation and manipulating FX and synth parameters with controllers much easier. Sonar feels clunky, outdated and unintuitive when it comes to stuff like this, and the manual is a confusing train wreck for newbies. Then you look for tutorials online on how to do this stuff and they either don't exist, or they demonstrate some kind of kludgy workaround or using an outdated, limited tool like Dropzone. 

I say Cakewalk did make a excellent Product venture...And it had the goods, and the engine would of made it, with some fixes perhaps...
 
The final for me...Was I was always on PC and OS MS WIN...and not happy with it being always a trouble hunting crap shoot...with any DAW OR APP...and the gear attached I put upon it to run.
 
 
What Cakewalk made unaware as a secondary...Excellent...Is the Users...This forum and all the helpers....And those who put the love and hope into music making that came to see...came to find...came to listen...came to this place.
 
Now Some are not seeing the Best part of it all....Is YOU!

I spent the day with Mixbus 32c.
 
It works fairly well and I was able to comp some tracks for the tune I was practicing.
 
I had AD2, Rapture Pro, and 8-10 audio tracks before I stopped. Some of those tracks exceeded 30 lanes.
 
I had one system crash and lost only small changes.
 
The comping wasn't as tidy as Sonar, but I managed it. There must be ways that are better than what I did. Interestingly to me, the lanes all collapsed to the right of a split. This works well for Mixbus. It makes it easy to promote clips to the highest lane so they win over the others.
 
But, I would still have been faster in Sonar. I see why Bapu uses Mixbus for mastering instead of tracking.
 
While I'm able to record a practice tune in Mixbus, I'm faster with Sonar.
 
I'm rooting for Sonar b/c Sonar is good for me. If it's also the other way around, so much the better.

sharke
 
It's not just about image or "coolness" though. The reason why DAW's like Ableton and Bitwig have more "street cred" than Sonar is because functionally they are better suited to the kind of production techniques used in modern music. Like having inbuilt samplers and drum racks, being able to do mid/side or split band processing on the same track.

In the gap after Gibson pulled the plug on Sonar, I went ahead and upgraded a dated version of Ableton Live that was gathering dust, up to the latest version for a low upgrade price.
 
I have to say, it may not be a mainstream DAW, but Ableton is rock solid, and there are a zillion how-to videos for Live available for free, or pay per view.  That is one thing that any young person will notice when Googling for tutorials on techniques.
 
The basic Ableton Live inbuilt sampler (Simpler) has capabilities that any DAW that is hoping to attract young producers should offer.
 
In the same post Sonar gap, I also took advantage of the cheap crossgrade deal for Studio One.  I looked to that as the one mainstream DAW that I would learn, to eventually replace Sonar.
 
It is as rock solid as Ableton, but offers a lot more for mixing and mastering than Ableton does.  But I have to say that Ableton offers some playful/creative tools that you will not find in a serious mainstream DAW.  And based on the latest news, I am not planning to abandon Sonar yet.  I am finding strengths in all of my tools, and there is no one "best" that I can see!
 
I have been a Cakewalk user for 20 years.  I think Cakewalk took a walk on the dark side with Project5
(which I thought was very cool!), but that was eventually shut down.  I hope that the new owners can add some inspirational workflow to Sonar in that spirit to keep the creative vibe flowing. 
 
I really believe that the future of Sonar depends on capturing the hearts and minds of the future generation.  There are just too many DAWs that are already digital recording studios, so there is no way for Sonar to gain an exclusive competitive edge in that arena and grow. 

gswitz
I spent the day with Mixbus 32c. . . . . . . . . .
 
 
 But, I would still have been faster in Sonar.
 
While I'm able to record a practice tune in Mixbus, I'm faster with Sonar.

Been using SONAR for 20 years, been using Mixbus for 1 day, but I still do things faster in SONAR? lol I wonder why? lol . Sorry, no offense, but these type of posts make me chuckle. There have been similar posts by people in the SONAR down time, one fellow said he tested another DAW for 30 minutes, yep you heard me right, a whole 30 minutes, can you imagine the dedication, the resolve?   No matter what DAW you try, you have to give it a chance at least until you get reasonably comfortable with it, preferably as close as possible to as comfortable as you are with your current DAW, of course you can't wait 20 years, but I'd say more than 30 minutes, even more than a day mightn't be in order?. But with Mixbus, if you were planning to use it as a fully fledged DAW, well I hope you don't have a swear jar, you'll be broke before you no it
 
Another thing people go on about is that SONAR always has this that and the other before every other DAW, it makes me laugh, there was a thread some months back where people were having a go at Pro Tools because users were going on about getting some feature new to 'it' that SONAR has had for a long time, I had to laugh, people seem to forget that it's the same in reverse, SONAR people going on about Ripple Editing, heck REAPER has had that for years, I was going to mention that and a few other things in the Pro Tools thread for a bit of balance, but I just let it go. Many other DAWS have features that SONAR doesn't have, have certain features way before SONAR gets them, (Studio One had ARA integration way before SONAR, according to Mr Anderton above, 2 years before, but I guess they are Co Developers of ARA along with Celemony so . . . ) but people here seem to not want to know about that, just like they don't want to hear about SONARs bugs, it's quirks, it's inadequacies etc etc, it's like they have blindfolds on and close there ears and sing na na na na na. No DAW is perfect, but if you are emotionally attached to a product and or a company, you will never give anything else an honest and true try, you will never admit something else could be better. It's like all the posts you see every now and then when someone says they are going to try out a new DAW, more often then not they'll say "But I'm not leaving SONAR" or "But SONAR will still be my number 1 DAW" lol , they have already shut the new product down before they even start, whats the point?, they are going in with a BIAS, gives me a good old chuckle.
 
Use whatever you think is the best for you, but don't get so emotionally attached to a piece of software or a company, don't get all fanatical about it, don't walk around with the blindfold on or you could be cutting your nose off to spite your face and missing out, at least be honest with yourself and if you try something else, give it the best, the most unbiased try you can, and realize the part the familiarity aspect plays, and don't let that make your descision if you are truly seeking something else, if you honestly don't like it that's fine, if you do that's fine as well, our sense of self worth isn't, or shouldn't be tied to a piece of software or company. Myself I couldn't care less what DAW it is, or who makes it, if I try it and think it's better than what I am using, I'm gone (as I did when I ditched SONAR a couple of years ago), I have no loyalty to a product, to a piece of software, or a faceless company, there all the same. Switching DAWs is relatively easy, never seen the drama, it doesn't take that long, and it's not like you do it every week or month, but it's just how things are, eventually something better will come along, it's guaranteed, might be a few years, but it will happen, you got to be honest with yourself.