• SONAR
  • Midi - should it go or should it stay ? (p.13)
2018/03/04 02:48:55
michael diemer
vintagevibe
Why is everyone rushing in to defend MIDI as if there is any universe where MIDI would be removed or omitted from any DAW?

Exactly, Vibe. Save your fingertips. Midi isn't going anywhere.
2018/03/04 07:36:27
MacFurse
Midiboy
To the OP,
 
I didn't quote you since your reply to me was on page one.  You had mentioned that I was being a little dismissive.  I do apologize, that wasn't my intention. 




No apology necessary Greg. I should have changed the title to more reflect my thoughts, and probably made a better go of it in the first place. You, and a lot of others, discuss things that I know of, but wouldn't have the first clue how to proceed with. Some of the information contained within these posts is simply amazing. So I thank you for that. I do use a lot of midi editing in what I do, though only basic. I've played bass, lead guitar and acoustic solo stuff, in bands, duo's, and solo, it would seems sometimes, forever, so I carry that into my DAW work. By default, that makes me, unappreciative if you like, or what others are capable of doing, with something I don't fully understand. So once again. I don't except your apology, as you've nothing to apologise for.
 
I knew the response would be fierce. But, honestly, I stand by my comment that I've mostly only seen only negative vibes in relation to midi development these last couple of years. I know that posts mainly reflect issues.  So, what I actually expected was more of that. More demands for what it was people wanted done.  So the new owners might be given some guidance. What I didn't expect was some massive support for what we already have, and many placing Sonar so far up the midi chain in it's present form. I was under the impression that people wanted some serious changes. All my midi work, up until around X1 I think, was done using staff notation. I gave it all away when it really did stop working the way it used to. These days it's all step sequencing and PRV for me. I get by, with some of the frustrations that others talk about, with notes cutting off, or simply not starting at all, but it never stops me.
 
Like most of the others that have stayed here, I believe SONAR to be one of the best. I know there are pro's that use it, as someone said. Some of the stories that were put up on the blog highlighted that. But it doesn't change the fact, SONAR does not operate in the PRO world. This can be said for a lot great DAWS. Doesn't mean they are bad.
 
What would it take for SONAR to break out of it's current hold pattern? It has the console. It has the flexibility. It has the tools. It mostly has the stability. In my view, it has the best audio chain and editing platform. And it has the good looks to boot! But is it the best midi control and editing platform?  Well, I didn't think so, based upon what I've read over some time. I was under the impression more people than not, used other means for serious midi editing. Maybe that impression is completely wrong.
 
So, if I've trolled, as scook depicts me, sorry for that. Wasn't the intention let me assure you. 
 
There have been some extremely interesting replies. Thanks. Dave.
2018/03/04 08:04:52
mettelus
abacab
BenMMusTech
I mostly use Notion 6 score editor for writing midi, I then import the midi into sonar for further refinement. Writing music with silly coloured blobs pails in comparison to writing with proper music notation.



The first time I opened Notion I wondered where the MIDI editor with the silly colored blobs was located.  
 
Still looking...
 
At least it does export MIDI...




+1, I am still getting up to speed with Notion 6, but was pleasantly surprised by its ability to host VST(i)s, making it a nice lightweight host for MIDI arrangements. It will transfer data to Studio One 3 as MIDI, but I also cannot find any way to adjust the MIDI inside Notion 6 itself (although there are references to this). Where this trips me up is with keyswitches for articulations, and that I would rather just adjust note velocity the same as in a PRV. Hopefully these will come online at some point soon (or if it already exists that I can find it!).
2018/03/04 13:25:31
Steev
This is probably one of the most interesting forum discussions I've participated in anywhere in quite some time on any topic.
 
And I find it hard to believe one of the most seriously productive pieces of MIDI gear for any and all DAW users  could ever possibly want and need hasn't even been mentioned yet. The Universal Control Surface, a.k.a. the ultimate mixing experience of using a MIDI DAW controller.
 
 I love my Behringer X Touch, when I die I want to be buried with it.
 And SONAR has very good reliable, and stable support for using the X Touch with Mackie protocol, although fairly sketchy documentation concerning the what button does what in control panel section.
 This documentation could certainly be improved.
 This problem long running exists for all DAW's with the exception of Apple Logic for owners of both Mackie and Behringer control surfaces, both of which are nearly identical.
 Though Mackie had the insight to provide templates for various DAW's shipped with their DAW controllers Behringer, as with typical Behringer support refuses to even acknowledge the problem exists.
 However, the difference in price as well as other refinements makes it well worth to do the extra work of finding and creating your own template or simply labeling the buttons with a label maker as I did.
 
And one major added new feature refinement the X Touch has over the Mackie is the addition of an Ethernet port.
I would love, love, LOVE to see SONAR offer support for this because it would offer the tightest integration for X Touch control over not only SONAR, but digital mixer/audio interfaces like a Behringer X Air series digital mixer/audio interface can capture and send up to 32 audio tracks directly into SONAR by either thru a WiFi router or  a single Cat6 Ethernet cable, and even control detailed customized MIDI control over light shows for live performances.
 BTW, for anyone who didn't realize it, you can record, edit, automate and save a light show sequence to a MIDI track(s), just like you would your favorite synth performance.
Add Behringer's Ethernet support to SONAR could most likely take an ENORMOUS market share from Presonus's StudioLive, and another BTW, StudioLive works great with Macs, not so great with Windows machines.
 
I'd also like to give a 2 thumbs up Salute to Cakewalk Forum member Azslow3 for his in depth insightful contributions to this forum on the subject of MIDI DAW controllers. He truly deserves a medal, and even a pay check for his most generous and selfless support.
2018/03/04 13:37:11
Zargg
Steev
This is probably one of the most interesting forum discussions I've participated in anywhere in quite some time on any topic.
 
And I find it hard to believe one of the most seriously productive pieces of MIDI gear for any and all DAW users  could ever possibly want and need hasn't even been mentioned yet. The Universal Control Surface, a.k.a. the ultimate mixing experience of using a MIDI DAW controller.
 
 I love my Behringer X Touch, when I die I want to be buried with it.
 And SONAR has very good reliable, and stable support for using the X Touch with Mackie protocol, although fairly sketchy documentation concerning the what button does what in control panel section.
 This documentation could certainly be improved.
 This problem long running exists for all DAW's with the exception of Apple Logic for owners of both Mackie and Behringer control surfaces, both of which are nearly identical.
 Though Mackie had the insight to provide templates for various DAW's shipped with their DAW controllers Behringer, as with typical Behringer support refuses to even acknowledge the problem exists.
 However, the difference in price as well as other refinements makes it well worth to do the extra work of finding and creating your own template or simply labeling the buttons with a label maker as I did.
 
And one major added new feature refinement the X Touch has over the Mackie is the addition of an Ethernet port.
I would love, love, LOVE to see SONAR offer support for this because it would offer the tightest integration for X Touch control over not only SONAR, but digital mixer/audio interfaces like a Behringer X Air series digital mixer/audio interface can capture and send up to 32 audio tracks directly into SONAR by either thru a WiFi router or  a single Cat6 Ethernet cable, and even control detailed customized MIDI control over light shows for live performances.
 BTW, for anyone who didn't realize it, you can record, edit, automate and save a light show sequence to a MIDI track(s), just like you would your favorite synth performance.
Add Behringer's Ethernet support to SONAR could most likely take an ENORMOUS market share from Presonus's StudioLive, and another BTW, StudioLive works great with Macs, not so great with Windows machines.
 
I'd also like to give a 2 thumbs up Salute to Cakewalk Forum member Azslow3 for his in depth insightful contributions to this forum on the subject of MIDI DAW controllers. He truly deserves a medal, and even a pay check for his most generous and selfless support.


I agree very much with this^^
Imagine having him on the new team?
2018/03/04 22:47:25
Faza_TCM
jimfogle
The next generation of MIDI is arriving NOW!  New specifications were released at 2018 NAMM.  The next generation is called MIDI-CI and is an addition to the original MIDI 1.0 specification.  That means anything based on MIDI-CI will be backward compatible with MIDI 1.0.  You can read more about MIDI-CI here:  https://www.midi.org/articles/midi-manufacturers-association-mma-adopts-midi-capability-inquiry-midi-ci-specification.



Now this is excellent news!
 
My previous comment on the datedness of MIDI mostly had to do with the word sizes, which are all too reflective of a bygone era. Hell, I remember 80s computing well enough, but I can't think of anything other than MIDI that still seems stuck in that era.
 
Looking over the next-gen protocol specs, I'm feeling not a bit hyped. The big question is: how soon will we see some implementations?
2018/03/08 02:22:01
Viamichael
My 1 cent opinion: take a away midi and I leave. I spend much of my time editing and writing in staff view. What I love about Sonar is that I feel comfortable using, mixing, and blending audio and midi. I’ve been using Cakewalk since the floppy disks days and spend must of my time writing music and enjoy figuring out new techniques I learn from this group. Midi is still a mystery to me, but somehow it works for me.

I’m slowly becoming an old guy that can’t seem to view music without actual black notes on white paper. It just makes sense to me. Guitar tab took a year before it made sense, but I never see a future for piano roll.

I sure hope the BandLab people don’t take us in the wrong direction. I just love the path we were on.
2018/03/08 08:09:13
DayDay72
MIDI isn't going anywhere anytime soon...ijs
2018/03/08 13:47:46
Steev
Faza_TCM
jimfogle
The next generation of MIDI is arriving NOW!  New specifications were released at 2018 NAMM.  The next generation is called MIDI-CI and is an addition to the original MIDI 1.0 specification.  That means anything based on MIDI-CI will be backward compatible with MIDI 1.0.  You can read more about MIDI-CI here:  https://www.midi.org/articles/midi-manufacturers-association-mma-adopts-midi-capability-inquiry-midi-ci-specification.



Now this is excellent news!
 
My previous comment on the datedness of MIDI mostly had to do with the word sizes, which are all too reflective of a bygone era. Hell, I remember 80s computing well enough, but I can't think of anything other than MIDI that still seems stuck in that era.
 
Looking over the next-gen protocol specs, I'm feeling not a bit hyped. The big question is: how soon will we see some implementations?


Now this is HUGE News, and in my opinion the most significant step forward since the introduction of the GM spec.
 A GIANT leap forward expanding and cementing MIDI'S place in not only music production, but paving the way for easy integration of many technologies we never dreamed of doing or playing well together as on one team.
 
 In simply laymen's terms, where GM defined a certain list of common instruments and parameters to be used, MIDI-CI greatly streamlines and expands at the same time, and simplifies the whole process by having all MIDI devices and software identify, shake hands and introduce themselves to each other before the show even begins.
 
This is a result of what happens when the great minds of Roland, Yamaha, and Korg get together and stop the politics of competing with each other, and put their heads together to come up with a solution that helps EVERYBODY!
 And making everyone's life sooooooooooooo much easier.
 And what's really hilarious about it is, the typical DAW user won't even know it's happening. 
 
 Most DAW users don't have any idea or even a clue as to what MIDI does and how deeply ingrained it is into the heart of every DAW, even if the DAW gives you limited to no editing control over it.
 Like Pro Tools. Contrary to popular belief, Pro Tools can support the most robust MIDI editing suites, the best your money can buy! 
 And the more you add on, the more you pay and the better it gets. That's just Apple's and AVID's logic for survival.
 Without MIDI under the hood just like every other DAW ever made, Pro Tools would never had existed, let alone evloved.
 
 As an old school MIDI guy from the 80's starting out learning with Roland's MRC MIDI language using a Roland MC-500 sequencer that didn't even ship with a demo song, I was forced to start on page one of the User Manual, and constantly warned NOT to skip over any single page or chapter until I understood all the steps of control change commands, Program Change commands, and procedures for setting and changing tempo and note resolution, velocity, and after touch, and the very clear definitions and differences between what MIDI "notes" are and what "musical" notes are.
One musical note = at least 5 MIDI notes,= On-Velocity-Key-Resolution-Off.
Using "Pitch Bend" and "Modulation" controllers will easily and quickly send 100's of MIDI notes to one musical note.
And the differences between MIDI "tracks" and MIDI "channels". ONE MIDI=16 MIDI channels.
 
The Roland MC 500 is a 4 track MIDI sequencer that can run 64 MIDI channels, meaning it can play up to 64 instrument parts, with a maximum of 100,000 MIDI notes per song.
 
 100K MIDI notes may sound like a lot, but you'd be surprised out how fast you can run out of MIDI notes before finishing a 3 minute song if you don't read and understand the chapter on how to create and store "LOOPS" for recurring sections of verse, chorus, bridge sections, etc, an early process which would later become known as using "Cakewalk Groove Clips" in SONAR, which were more often then not, confused with ACID loops to the average SONAR user.
  Without a demo to hear the MC 500 sat curiously on the desk, silent and mysterious.  But contained a very detailed and complete course in MIDI sequencing in place of a demo. After about a month of sometimes rather frustrating study I started to develop a clear understanding of what went on underneath the hood of a sequencer.
 About 2 weeks after that I completed my dissertation for the rather grueling Roland MIDI course.
 Note for NOTE and without ever hearing it before, I step wrote an exacting MIDI performance of Johan Sabastian Bach's "Little Fugue in G Minor" into the MC 500 specifically optimized for the Casio CZ 1000. It sounded so very real and authentic, I was told by many who actually attended Julliard, that it could be used as a recital to attend Julliard School of Music.
 But I, primarily as a rock & roll guitarist had absolutely no intentions of doing so with a mind set of furthering my education into a trained money.
 My mind set was, there are only two types of musicians; Imitators and Innovators. And the only reason I pursued MIDI in the first place was to pursue Innovation and escaping a world being forced into sounding like Eric Clapton or Jimi Hendrix.
 
 Roland's reasoning behind the MC 500 being a 4 track sequencer was to give it the power to play 4 hardware synths discretely on their own tracks without colliding or conflicting with each other, whether they were made by Korg, Casio, Roland or whatever. This was very important because the General MIDI (GM) Specification wasn't invented yet.
 What made the MC 500 so ultimately powerful is, it didn't need to "understand" the very different commands of proprietary languages of Korg, Casio, or what ever to sequence performances together.
 And at the time, at first I must have cursed Roland hourly forcing me to learn all what I thought of as all that boring tedious crap I'll never use. Cursing them night after night, out of anger, but less and less nightly as I started to understand how valuable this knowledge is to know now, and how it can be used in the future, whether I stick with Roland or not
I stand on my belief that NO OTHER SEQUENCER MANUFACTURER COULD DO THAT BETTER THAN ROLAND! Some of them might have done just as good, but they just did it differently.
 And those that didn't struck out early in the game.
 
 Just as I stand on my belief today that THERE IS NO OTHER DAW WITH MORE POWERFUL MIDI SEQUENCING THAN SONAR! Some of them might do it just as good, but just did it differently.
    And as to date... Although many have tried through the years, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY has ever proved or presented empirical evidence that ever proves otherwise.
 Only opinions, and in my world opinions have absolutely nothing to do with the truth so don't count for much.
 
 
 
2018/03/09 18:59:55
dappa1
CJaysMusic
Re: Midi - should it go or should it stay ?
 
Why do you or why would you have you choose? 
 
Is there a reason why you seem a need to choose??


Sometimes Cjay there is a need to choose, choose to or not to choose, that is the question
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